If you see a lady in a real nice expensive vehicle like I mentioned a (BMW, Audi, Jag or possibly a Hummer etc etc)you know that they are either a super dady’s girl or they just borrowed it from their boyfriend but it’s certainly not their own personal vehicle as in (bought with their OWN money :). Women would never ever go to a car dealer and say I want a BMW, Audi, Jag, Hummer.

Men just cring when a girl is a daddy’s girl and daddy’s buys her everything like a super nice vehicle. If women want these vehicles so bad then use you own DAMN money and get your own nice vehicle and don’t let your DADDY buy you one it’s time to grow up and if you can afford one then go buy it and learn about vehicles. Quit playing the oh poor me I don’t know shit about cars but I want to look like I do so I’ll just have daddy buy me one even though I’m 38 yrs old I’ll just be a daddy’s girl or my BF will always lend me his. Go get your own damn vehicle!!!

REASON I try so hard: I am over-40 and have to keep myself looking as youthful as possible – that is a career fact for a woman.

The ROI is clear: raises, promotions, even simply keeping a job. Unfortunately there is a double standard, but that’s OK with me as I enjoy looking the best I can at any age as my Mom always did and taught her two daughters to do the same.

Someone mentioned not having to look good in RADIO: some people say that “no one can see you.” On the contrary, the people who matter most in your company see you. At the company I previously worked for, the on-air floor was full of people who came to work without a bath, dirty wrinkled clothes, and just basically looked like “radio trash” as my DH and I call them. They looked like a bunch of losers no matter what their age. This company I will not name but their initials are CC. And the age prejudice is obvious to the point of face-to-face insults from management to employees about their age. I was asked by upper management if I spun records during Pony Express days and was called “old” by a young loser I was forced to train to take my place.

I did not overdress but I set myself apart from the pack in being neat, and looking my best even though it was OK to wear jeans & T-shirt mine was ironed, shoes and handbag good.

Know what? When I was a part of the recent cutback I got a job faster than anyone else. My reputation preceded me and now I work with the casually-dressed but classy team at a company whose initials are CBS. No “radio trash” there and we are on the same floor, same suite as Sales and where listeners are given tours. The technical producers act professionally and look professional.

So that’s my ROI…and it turns out that it has paid off for this Technical Producer for a morning talk show.

And yes…I get up at 2:15 am to be at work by 4:00 am….with makeup on & hair done. People really DO see you on the radio!

The commentators here have already put forth a more direct view: women shouldn’t have to, but perhaps both men and women need to change their expectations if anything’s ever going to change.

I suppose all it takes is a shift in point of view. I prefer that my partner, and women in general, look neat — but they don’t have to look made up all the time. It seems fake, like putting on a mask every day of the year.

I suppose it’s easy for me to say that, I’m a guy: I shower, shave, wash my face and apply deodorant.

How far would using only less-expensive products go? Is that even a viable option?

And I think this is not a habit from years past. The recent explosion of consumerism and advertising terrorism has driven ladies in this ruthless cycle.

We have 4 girls. Whilst we have not done much about this, I would like to get them to appreciate and understand the natural (and much cheaper) remedies that are available. Our Frugal Duchess writes quite a bit on this aspect.

REgards

I just live in a way-cool place :)

Forgot to mention – I am an Office Manger/executive secretary/bookkeeper for one of the largest private employers in my county.

I quit worrying about what others might think of me a long long time ago – and it has been VERY freeing :) I’m happy with me and that’s all that matters to me.

Never dyed my hair and never plan to (with 8 grandkids I’m allowed some gray hairs) , no other makeup, no fingernail stuff except trimming by me, no eyebrow doings, or any of those other unnatural things.
Think of all the money I have saved over the years, and at NO detriment to my job. Now THAT makes me happy!!! And it could be a large part of why I am debt-free, including the house being paid for!

Luckily I live in rural NW Oregon, where women are not judged by looks, but judged by what they think/contribute to the rural lifestyle. Luckily I can wear jeans, sweatshirts, and hiking boots to work :)

Oh, and my fancy car? It’s a Silverado Pickup 4×4…. my grandkids think Grammi’s truck is just the coolest :)

I’m in complete agreement as well about first impressions. There’s no second chance to make a good first impression, it is true.

I don’t agree about men on TV. Mark Harmon is very easy to look at, and I don’t watch dopy-looking men on TV. Mark Harmon is also not a chauvinist or effeminate. No, he is hot. However, I watch very little TV, so I’ve not had much chance to see the guys you are referring to.

It is quite possible that my boss doesn’t say something to the women because of sexual harassment laws. The laws work, in every way, against the man. I say this with a boatload of unjustified experience. It’s very easy for a woman to say someone looked sideways at you and get a settlement.

That said, I currently work in an office which (if you were to take a walk through) would be the LAST place you’d say “wow they really hold women to a higher standard”, in a negative sense. In fact, it’s been at least 10 years or more since I’ve worked in an office where you could say that.

I think women often hold themselves to a higher standard because they BELIEVE that is what is wanted. And this is not a bad thing, because I do the same thing. Every time I go out, I try to look my best so that people will look at me and see something good. I TRY to make people see me as well-groomed, because I believe that is what they expect of me. I spend alot of time watching my weight, working out, etc. just so I can conform to a “look” which I feel (though I know others do not feel the same way) is the way society wishes to see me.

I think this kind of thing is perfectly justifiable, too. In my experience, I’ve come to realize that first impressions are very hard to overcome – most PEOPLE (not just men) are very shallow. As a result, it’s worth it to put in the extra effort.

So every time you think that you are being held to a “higher standard” (let’s say Penelope Cruz, maybe?), remember that I, too, am being held to a “higher standard” (perhaps it’s Brad Pitt…it used to be Tom Cruise, I suppose, until he went mental).

Also remember that when people think of men on sitcoms, dramas, or even commercials, they don’t consider looks – they consider brains. And men are not held in high regard in either event. If you’re not a fat, stupid, balding dope of a man, you are not likely to get portrayed on any video or film.
The rare exceptions being:
1. The absolute despicable chauvinist
2. The effeminate “sensitive” man

But, by and large, the slobbering idiot is the standard. The concept of showing a man who can actually dress himself, takes care of himself, and has an IQ over 120 is something that really just isn’t capable of passing muster in Hollywood these days.

For women, that’s a given.

Talk to me about higher standards now. I believe we may have some common ground, if you care to think about it.

In your example you say your boss doesn’t chastise women as readily for their problematic appearance. Could this be because he is simply more comfortable raising the topic with members of his own sex? Maybe he doesn’t want to risk a sexual harassment complaint or lawsuit by confronting a woman about something foreign to him like smudged eyeliner or messy hair? In any event do you really think she is not being silenty judged more harshly for that behavior than other periodically disheveled men in the office?

Do you honestly think in our society women are not held to a higher standard of looks?? A prime example without even considering makeup and hair is weight. It’s a complete non-issue if a man is 50 pounds overweight, but a woman who is 20 pounds overweight is considered lazy, indulgent, even less intelligent than her peers.

Would you ever see a fat woman advertising beer (gross!!)? What about a fat man (hilarious!!)?

Besides which women are evaluated solely on their looks in general. It’s the first question people ask or the first trait people compliment when hearing about or meeting a female. Successful women who aren’t good looking are often ridiculed in spite of their success. I once had a guy tell me he hates Oprah, and when I asked why and pointed out all she has accomplished, his response was “yeah, but she’s so…ugly!” No comment would ever be spoken about a successful male, no matter how unattractive.

It’s so true that women spend a lot of money on beauty. But I do have to note that it makes us happy. So what’s the difference between spending half a million on beauty, and spending that same amount in cars, technology, sports, DVDs, etc or other supposedly more practical pursuits?

Now, I don’t spend much. I really don’t, since I started becoming more eco-friendly, and now I spend $0 on hair except for a haircut once in a while, around $200/year at $100/cut every 6 months.

Makeup is minimal, facial care is too.. and I don’t use body washes, shaving cream, etc. I find that all to be not necessary (for me and my skin/body).

But not every woman can do this, and I acknowledge that. It’s a lot of time, effort, money and a bit of a pain in the ass to wash your hair only with water and not with shampoo.

Nonetheless, you’ve made some great points.

link [pdf], Page 2

http://monthlyreview.org/0506jbf.htm where it says

The typical family is also mired in credit card debt. At present nearly two-thirds of all cardholders carry balances and pay finance fees each month—with the average debt balance per cardholder rising to $4,956 at the end of 2005.

It’s just as I thought. So if the readers of this blog have more money and are more into preserving wealth than the average random sampling of Americans, then it’s not a stretch to believe that we spend a lower percent of our income on what many of us consider to be extraneous beautification.

I do agree with you that societal standards of beauty change, but the basics don’t. We are psychologically hardwired as men to look for women that can bear children and as women to look for men that can provide for a family. There are many scientific studies which prove this and explain why we are attracted to different physical attributes. The trends in fashion accentuate these features differently with the filter of science and sociology put on. Some of us value financial security more than beautification and others do the opposite. That’s just our spectrum of society.

However, at the time, nature had developed a means by which women could safely give birth – by maintaining a form and size that was optimal to survival. This look became the norm, and was adopted by the society as the highest form of beauty. Today, in movies, we see our thin actress beauties performing as the beauties of yesterday. But they were NOTHING like that. This is modern society imposing its view of beauty on the past.

Today, tans are considered beautiful. Prior to the mid 1900’s, being tan was the sign of being lower class – spending too much time in the sun. As a result, many paintings from long ago showed women and men with white lead on their faces to make them paler than normal. This was considered beautiful and a sign of wealth and health (imagine what that lead was doing to them!!).

We cannot hope to surmise what the next 20 years will bring with regard to the signs of beauty. Even now, these signals are changing, as we watch the younger generations engage behaviors many of us find repellent such as tattoos and piercings.

First of all, a lot of the make-up, hair, high heels, leg shaving habits that most women partake in were probably created by women so that they could one-up each other. Unless somebody has evidence to prove otherwise, it’s not fair to blame this sexism on men. And men have to do a lot to impress the opposite sex too. That’s part of what drives some of us to partake in competitive sports, work out a lot, buy expensive cars, dress well, go for careers that make good money, etc…

Secondly, the women who visit this site are by no means a good representation of the female population, and nor are the male visitors typical of the male population. Most people in the normal population set are clueless about finances and live a credit card mentality. They’re the ones who (used to) buy all kinds of things they can’t afford, including salon visits, boats, expensive cologne,

I do agree that people ought to look their best, in the ways you described. I just don’t think it is that expensive a proposition to do that, and certainly doesn’t normally require surgery or professional services.

The corporate office would most likely ask the women to clean up except that it’s likely they’d get drawn into a dispute of “what’s fair” and “what’s right” vis-a-vis the males of the office. Never mind that the women never see our managers giving a poorly displayed fellow a dressing down.

I firmly believe we are held to similar standards and it’s all in what you see. Since you believe this to be true, it’s unlikely anything I say can convince you otherwise. On the other hand, I see many things that are done behind closed doors which you do not…and thus have an awareness of the true sensibilities of what is occurring in at least one office.

Imagine if the hours a woman spent grooming, she instead spent earning income? Imagine if she didn’t spent no more than a man on grooming products? I bet the distribution of wealth by gender would be a lot closer than it is now.

Personally I cut my own hair, don’t wear makeup, and I don’t even shave (i remember from when I did how much razors and shaving cream cost me). I thoroughly enjoy my free time and my extra money.

The real reason I responded, though, is because I think your reaction at the dentist’s was…irrational. We all need certain periodic services, like teeth cleaning. There are probably other dentists you could see, if you’re concerned with how the hygienist’s salary was spent, but all the money you spend on services is going to other people’s lives somewhere along the line. If their life choices really bother you, you can go elsewhere, but the money you spend anywhere may be financing someone’s Mercedes or someone’s facelift or whatever.

What matters is that you were or weren’t satisfied with the service you received and whether you do or don’t need the service. If the scaler kit gets it done, that’s great, but otherwise neglecting yourself and putting yourself at risk for major dental surgery (my dad’s had it done and it’s not pretty, painless, or cheap!!!) because you don’t like that someone at the office got plastic surgery is doing yourself a disservice and giving her actions undue power over your own.

Starting with a single product — a new type of nail enamel — the three founders pooled their resources and developed a unique manufacturing process. Using pigments instead of dyes, Revlon developed a variety of new shades of opaque nail enamel. Successful in salons from the start, in 1937 Revlon started selling the polishes in department stores and drug stores. In six years the company became a multimillion dollar organization. By 1940, Revlon offered an entire manicure line, and added lipstick to the collection. During World War II Revlon created makeup and related products for the U.S. Army, which was honored in 1944 with the Army-Navy ‘E’ Award for Excellence.

Revson had been told that starting a makeup company during the depression was a bad idea, since women wouldn’t waste money on things they didn’t need. Except that the small amount of money they paid to look good helped them through their darkest days. As a result, a makeup behemoth was launched.

Who says that Depressions are bad for business? Not me…I view crisis as opportunity.

Different strokes for different folks, but that statement really shocked me. Any man that required me to spend money on beautification services to please him wouldn’t be a desirable man to me. To say the least. I definitely don’t want a job where I have to primp and pay to buy myself a promotion, but I don’t live in a big city and might be out of touch on that point.

I just don’t believe in (for myself) spending excessively or unnecessarily, and I hate waste. And I don’t support others doing it with my money – it makes me think before I spend, in some cases. I went to the dentist a couple of years ago, just wanting my teeth cleaned and two teeth recapped. It took a couple of visits and $635. The hygienist was gorgeous, but when I returned for another visit, she had black eyes from getting her nose broken for plastic surgery. I was not only not happy with the amount of money I spent there, but very disgruntled that I was supporting somebody’s completely unnecessary and dangerous procedure in the name of vanity. I haven’t been to the dentist since, and actually bought myself a scaler kit (less than $10.00!!! LOL) to clean my own teeth until I feel like spending a ridiculous amount of money again. It may be awhile.

Seriously who spends $1,182 /year on cosmetics, pedicures and manicures for a 8-12 year old girl? That can’t be normal. I’m not THAT out of touch am I?