Deposits and Withdrawals: Do Banks Trap You Into Overdraft Fees?
There really is no need to pay many bank fees – in theory it’s easy to avoid overdraft fees by making sure you have enough money in your account. However, many national banks practice predatory behaviors, particularly with these exact types of fees.
For example, Bank of America settled a long-running class-action lawsuit on overdrafts and agreed to pay $66.6 million to settle the suit in late 2017.
What happened was that the bank was accused of using overdraft fees to collect exorbitantly high-interest rates from customers who let their accounts be overdrawn for several days. Bank of America was essentially making the customers a loan by allowing these overdrafts in the first place. And then they were charging incredibly high-interest rates–in the form of fees–on that loan.
Even with high-profile lawsuits like this, banks haven’t completely changed things like when banks process transactions and decisions about withdrawals. In other words, you may still be hit with multiple fees.
Of course, it’s a good idea to do everything you can to avoid overdrawing your account in the first place. But if you are in a financial bind, it’s a good idea to take a look at how your bank handles overdrafts and whether it offers overdraft protection. That way you can see whether or not you’re effectively being trapped into getting hit with multiple overdraft fees in the same day.
How Do Bank Posting Times Work?
What happens is that banks post transactions in such a way that you might end up incurring an overdraft, hence those fees.
For example, you know you have an automatic withdrawal hitting your account today for your monthly mortgage payment. There isn’t quite enough in it to cover the withdrawal, so you make a cash deposit or conduct a transfer from a connected account online. The deposit and withdrawal are on the same day, so the automatic withdrawal should be covered, right?
That’s not always the case.
Many banks will process all withdrawals first–from the largest amount to the smallest–and then they’ll process your deposit last. So what happens is that you’ll be hit with overdraft fees if there isn’t enough in the account since it processes the withdrawal first.
Is That Even Allowed?
Unfortunately, yes.
Federal law doesn’t regulate the order that banks post checks to your account. The Federal Reserve says that banks typically process the largest to the smallest transactions within the same day assuming the largest payments you make are most likely to be the most important.
You can protect yourself from these types of predatory practices by opting out of some overdraft protection — if you don’t have the funds to pay for a transaction, overdraft protection will let the transaction through but charge you a one-time fee. The Federal Trade Commission says that you have to specifically opt-in to overdraft protection. If you don’t opt-in to this service, your transaction will just be declined.
Keep in mind that this doesn’t apply to recurring, scheduled transactions. In these cases, banks can usually enroll you in overdraft protection plans without your permission. So scheduled transactions can overdraw your account and you’ll be charged a fee.
Understand How Your Bank Works
The truth is that most banks aren’t exactly transparent in terms of telling you of these predatory practices. However, it can be helpful to know how your bank deals with transactions so that you’re not caught with paying overdraft fees if you can avoid them. We checked out the policies of 10 banks to get a feel for differences in how banks deal with ACH deposits and transactions.
Existing Banks (Brick and Mortar Banks)
Wells Fargo
Wells Fargo will process incoming transfers or deposits first, then ATM withdrawals or debit card purchases. These are sorted by the lowest to highest dollar amount. Afterwards, ACH withdrawals or checks will then be processed from the lowest to the highest amount.
If you do incur an overdraft fee, you can’t be charged more than three times per day. However, their more recent Overdraft Rewind feature gives a “second review” of the previous day’s transactions at 9 a.m. the next morning. So if you deposit cash or get a direct deposit overnight, you could get Wells Fargo overdraft fees from the previous day refunded to your account.
Citibank
According to Citibank’s documentation, it processes transactions in the following order:
- Deposits made before the deposit cut-off time the previous day.
- Fees for any Citibank services provided.
- Transactions received in real-time during the day are taken out or added as they occur. They are processed based on the account balance, and then any associated fees are assessed.
- Outstanding checks and any ACH debits not deducted during the day are processed from lowest to highest dollar amount.
You can sign up for its Safety Check service as a way to avoid Citibank overdraft fees. With this service, your checking account is linked to a savings or Money Market account. The bank can automatically transfer money from your savings account to cover the overdrawn amount, rather than charging the Citibank overdraft fee.
Chase
Chase’s online documentation provides a clear outline of how it processes withdrawals and deposits:
- Puts outstanding deposits to your account first.
- It processes transactions such as wire transfers, debit card transactions, online banking transactions, ATM and teller cash withdrawals, and checks cashed or deposited by a Chase employee in the order they come in.
- Then it’ll withdraw other items, including checks deposited or cashed from the highest to the lowest dollar amount.
The bank did say that it can change the order of some of these transactions in several states, so contact Chase to find out exactly what’s going on.
Chase is among a list of banks with overdraft protection overdraft protection. For one, it won’t charge an insufficient funds fee if your balance at the end of the day is overdrawn by $5 or less. But if it’s overdrawn for at least five consecutive business days, they’ll charge an additional $15 Chase overdraft fee.
TD Bank (Commerce Bank)
TD Bank processes transactions, including pending transactions, in chronological order. However, checks that are cashed or deposited at another bank are batched and processed at the end of the business day. In other words, you can overdraft with a pending deposit.
TD Bank does offer some overdraft protection services. You can link an account to your checking account, the bank will transfer money to cover your TD Bank overdraft fee for a $10 fee. If you make a deposit to bring your balance back to the black before the end of the business day, you can avoid overdraft fees altogether.
Capital One
Capital One process transactions in the following order:
- ACH transactions and manually approved checks from the lowest to highest dollar amount.
- Cash, such as ATM withdrawals and wire transfers from the lowest to highest dollar amount or chronological order from the lowest to highest dollar amount or chronological order.
- Customer-initiated charges and fees from the lowest to highest dollar amount or chronological order.
- Debit card transactions from the lowest to highest dollar amount or chronological order.
- Authorized ACH transactions from the lowest to highest dollar amount or chronological order.
- Checks from the lowest to highest dollar amount.
- Bank-initiated transactions, account to account transfers and credit and debits that the bank initiates from the lowest to highest dollar amount.
The bank doesn’t charge a Capital One overdraft fee if the amount that’s overdrawn is $5 or less at the end of each business day. The bank does offer overdraft protection services which include linking to a savings account or giving you a one day grace period to make a deposit for the overdrawn amount before charging you a fee. Otherwise, you’ll have to pay it and Capital One can charge you up to four times a day.
Bank of America
I’m sure you’re wondering how Bank of America changed its deposit and withdrawal posting policies after the lawsuit. As of now, here’s how they process transactions:
- First, deposits are added in order of highest to lowest dollar amount.
- Next most debit transactions are taken out based on the date and time you made them, provided the system actually has the date and time for the transactions.
- Then, any outstanding checks will be subtracted in order of the check number.
- After that, the bank will subtract any other electronic payments and pre-authorized transfers in order from the highest to the lowest amount.
- Finally, the bank will apply any fees, including Bank of America overdraft fees, from highest to lowest dollar amount.
As you can see, you still have some of the problem here with withdrawals being taken from highest to lowest dollar amount, but it’s only with some of your transactions. And since the bank processes your deposits first, you are a little more protected from cutting-it-too-close Bank of America overdrafts.
Additional Banks (Online/Mobile Banks)
Steal of the day: Chime’s Savings Account now offers a 0.50% APY! With this FREE service you don't need to worry about minimum balance requirements or maximums on interest earnedOnline banks tend to be better in the sense that while there may be some fees, some are less strict in how you get charged. In fact, many waive fees that traditional banks normally charge or tend to be a bit less strict in terms of how you get charged.
Ally Bank
As one of the most popular online banks, Ally Bank does charge an overdraft fee. However, there is only a maximum of one Ally Bank overdraft fee per day (it’s currently at $25) and it’s only charged if you don’t have enough money in your account–it won’t charge you if it’s due to an ATM withdrawal or a debit card purchase.
Ally Bank says it generally posts transactions in the order they’re received. Direct deposits and transfers initiated from another bank and received by Ally before 6 am ET will be available within the same business days. Otherwise, other forms of transactions such as transfers received by Ally after 6 am ET, checks drawn from Ally bank and wire transfers may be available the next business day.
Chime Bank
Chime doesn’t charge eligible customers overdraft fees. It features a program called SpotMe, which lets you overdraw your account for debit card purchases without incurring overdraft fees.
Depending on your eligibility, you may be limited to $20 all the way up to $100. Customers will receive a notification when this happens and when you receive your next direct deposit amount, you’ll pay it back, with the option to give Chime a tip to pay it forward.
To qualify, you’ll need to have at least $500 in qualifying direction deposits each month to your Chime Spending Account. You’ll start at a $20 limit then may be eligible for up to $100 that’s based on factors like your spending and direct deposit frequency.
Keep in mind that SpotMe won’t cover transactions such as ATM withdrawals, ACH transfers, and Chime Checkbook transactions. If you don’t have enough money in your account, Chime will decline the transaction.
Chime will process transactions in the order they’re received–generally direct deposits are available on the same business day, whereas other types of deposits can take up to five business days.
Radius Bank
Radius Bank online bank accounts charge overdraft fees much in the same way that Bank of America does. Radius Bank will also charge an extra $5 per day for accounts that are overdrawn by more than five days.
It does offer options like overdraft protection where you can pay back your negative balance on your next paycheck, bypassing the overdraft fee. Radius Bank allows you to link your savings account so if your check account does not have enough money, it’ll automatically make a transfer from your savings.
Radius Bank tends to process transactions in this manner:
- ACH transactions posted from highest to lowest dollar amount
- Checks will be processed by serial number or check order
- All other types like deposits and debit or ATM transactions will be posted in the order they’re received
Bank Novo
Bank Novo charges a $27 overdraft fee. It currently does not offer overdraft protection but claims that it has processes in place such as reminders. Bank Novo also begins with smaller withdrawals and works up to the larger ones on the day they’re processed to help you avoid the fee.
The bank won’t charge you if you’ve opted out of overdraft for ATM or one-time debit card transactions, but this is only for consumers and not business bank accounts.
The Bottom Line
It’s a no brainer that you should do everything you can to avoid overdrawing your account in the first place. But in the event that you find yourself dancing the line of a low balance and bills coming due, it helps to know how your bank will handle deposits and withdrawals.
Article comments
This is completely arbitrary. This has all been computerized for decades now. There is no reason they can’t process every transaction chronologically. If you have $300 in your account, and you deposit $300 cash, and subsequently, a check is presented for $575, and then another check is presented for $10, you should have $15 in your account. The bank should not be allowed to make up an alternative sequence of events, in which it first applies the $575 check, leaving you $275 overdrawn, then charges you $35, leaving you $310 overdrawn, then processes the $10 check, leaving you $320 overdrawn, then charges you another $35, leaving you $355 overdrawn, THEN decides to acknowledge your PREVIOUS deposit of $300, leaving you still $55 overdrawn.
That is theft.
Same bs from US bank. I have an auto transfer for every Monday. They agreed. It’s a transfer from another account internally, and it comes in on tues at 3-4am of course I take screen shots, because it is always “corrected” back to Monday the next day. Yeah they still charge overdraft fees based on their lie.
bbt holds your largest purchases for days then clears them. They will also reconcile already cleared paymens into reconciled so you beleive your looking at the correct balance your not. All of sudden your balance goes extremely higher and you will all of sudden have 20 or 30 items already cleared back into pending so you go over a couple dollers. tThen they pop you with a overdraft fee. Do not bank with them you will never know how much money you exactly have without keeping a check book reconciled. Place is som shady I do not understand how they get by with this stuff. I would not recommend BB&T to know one until they change there practices.
Green dot. Com bank . I had withdrawals of over 995.00 , from wells Fargo bank , I dont deal with wells Fargo, how did this happen, I need help with this , I contacted them , I cant get anyone on the phone from green dot. Com idk what to do ….
Yep. Westamerica bank. Many times. Looks good all day online but the next day, all of a sudden the order of transactions changes around and whap there goes a fee. Often.
It’s called batch for a reason. BECAUSE IT’S A BATCH! (my Lewis Black attempt). The only way for it not to be predatory is to process your credits and debits at the end of day as a Batch, and then if you are negative you pay the fee. Anything else is stealing.
I had an unexpected Forced ACH posted on my account and while pending, US Bank hits me with an overdraft fee. After Monday nights posting and since US Bank arranges the order of the posted transactions, I was not negative in my balance but the overdraft fee posted anyways without putting me under. Because of the overdraft fee I had 4 transactions bring me to negative balance (2 were over $5 and 2 were under $5). Now I have 2 pending overdraft fees. If banks are allowed to rearrange posted transactions to benefit from overdraft fees, then they should take responsibility for not charging me the 1st overdraft fee because from their practice of arranging posted transactions when I wasn’t negative in balance. Without the first overdraft fee, my last 4 transactions wouldn’t have overwithdrawn my account triggering 2 more pending overdraft fees…? Maybe I’m wrong
I can’t even imagine the amount of money that was stolen from people through these practices it’s on believable that they can get away with this they got a license to steal and the government approves of it
Associated Bank seems to practice this quite well I make a study practice of checking my account every night if it shows anything that day I make a deposit but yet on occasions check on it the next morning checking account will show a positive account then if I check on it at noon or a little later all of a sudden I got over charges stemming from the day before legal robbery
Yep. Westamerica bank. Many times. Looks good all day online but the next day, all of a sudden the order of transactions changes around and whap there goes a fee. Often.
I’m livid at how my CHASE bank is extremely predatory like they explained in the article.
Today they reordered my withdraws and deposits & withheld my CASH deposit so that I got hit with three $34 fees – when in reality, I should not even be overdrawn & I should still have money in the bank.
In one day CHASE made $102 dishonest dollars! They do this to me OFTEN because I am always carefully balancing my budget and have just barely enough.
They also charge me stupid fees every month that they claim are “mandatory” for all accounts that don’t carry a high balance – like over $25,000. Basically they are charging the middle & lower class but not the rich.
They charge these mandatory fees at different times – they wait until these fees will overdraw me and THEN they take it out so they can charge me even more fees.
Does anyone know a bank that I could switch to that isn’t predatory??!!
I’m so fed up with this sleezy pos bank!!!!!!!! Ugh!!!! CHASE IS THE WORST!!!!
Try Covantage or Flagstar. Covantage offers small, manageable loans to help keep your account positive and if you od, they cover it. Flagstar is a ” no frills bank” what you see is what you get. Watch your account carefully- you won’t ever of there! Gl I hope it helps!
I believe Huntington will give you a 24 hour grace period if it does overdraft. The best ones are the ones without brick and mortar buildings but i know many people like having a branch and checks. However, its just a matter of time before we are paperless. Chime sounds like a good one.
Wells Fargo takes my payments out after 8 p.m estern time, then say they took it out during the day! Like I don’t check my bank account during the day, come on!
I feel that if you’re paying overdraft fees and they’re taking them melee out of your direct deposits then they shouldn’t be returning checks at all. Also go lie you to overdraft $300 in cash from an ATM but if a check comes in for $100 and there’s none of the bank if they returned it happen to me the other day I had $100 check from the nail salon and leaning deposited the night before and the ATM thing because they wouldn’t cash it cuz the money wasn’t in the bank yet and 9:15 in the morning I went to put the $100 in the bank and they had already returned the check in the mail to the lady didn’t even wait for the day or the morning to see if I will come in by 12 or anyting and also I turned around and went and overdrive the $300 from the ATM and did one fee instead of using a little by little and get a $34 fee each time but they wouldn’t cover the $100 check which I think it’s ridiculous
Here is my story. I run a small business. Clients pay by credit card and checks at the last minute. We got hit with a large event and payroll was more than what we had in our reserved. I put in all I had hoping for US Bank to clear my deposits since they when in at 10:00am on Friday. They deposits are on hold. I handed out checks Friday at 8pm during an employee meeting (5 employees). One of the employees used his chase account app to make the deposit (phone) at 8:30pm. Another employee deposited his check at the Wells Fargo ATM at around 9:00pm. The very next morning Saturday at 6:00am, I was negative $992.00 with four overdraft fees since magically the number one employee of the year was on duty and process the chase mobile app transaction and the wells Fargo ATM deposit within 10 hours and non of the deposits have clear. Keep in mind that we have been making the same deposits for 22 months. Same clients with their same local banks, but those will not clear since its a weekend. I have chase for my personal account. I have made several mobile app deposits during the week, weekends and it takes at minimum 2 to 3 business days to clear. I am convince that when a bank sees an account low and checks or withdraws hit the account they immediately go out of their way to clear the transactions to hit the customer with an overdraft fee. So here I sit, working a 12 hour shift for the next two weeks so I can avoid a large payroll ( bank will not give me a loan to be able to have extra money for payroll since we have no business credit). It makes me very upset that they will process transactions so fast but undermined the deposits. I can’t do business without a bank account and all banks are the same. A $35.00 ODF times 3 is $105.00. If 100 customer are hit with this sample the bank makes $10,500. If it hits 1000 customer than they make $100k. Its a business I know, they need to make money. But don’t hold your customers deposits and then hit them with overdraft fees. Anyway, I need it to get this out as I think you all will at least know what I am dealing with. I am looking forward to my $5.00 settlement check when US Bank gets hit with a class action lawsuit and they pay out a tax deductible settlement. I know some lawyers that could use another luxury car and a few vacation trips with their 40% take home.
That’s a mess. Just. A. An absolute…mess. And I thought my life was a predicament!! So sorry you have to go thru this!
I believe Huntington will give you a 24 hour grace period if it does overdraft. The best ones are the ones without brick and mortar buildings but i know many people like having a branch and checks. However, its just a matter of time before we are paperless. Chime sounds like a good one.
I, too, deal with US Bank and I totally get what your saying. Have you ever asked them to refund them. If they say no then just call back until someone says yes. lol.
Has anyone noticed how in the past few years the media has quit talking about monies in millions and now it is more often referenced in “BILLIONS.” Do most of us even comprehend that?
My goodness the greed! I took a page from my Grandfather. (I am 68 years, by the way) He kept his wages in a safe instead of the bank. The result was in 1930 when the banks started to fail, he had money. In 1933 he still had money. As the banks failed, he bought property.
I wanted to buy a house but when I tried to pay for the down payment with cash, I was not allowed to. I wanted to buy my daughter a car and found I was not allowed to pay cash for it. I am on social security and have to have a bank account or a special card in order to receive it. The banks have a right to legally extort the American people out of money because our cash can’t be saved or spent any more. Maybe Trump will fix it?
That’s the mark of the beast slowly coming into play that’s gradualism. First, it’s mandated you have to be tied to a bank then next they’ll want to microchip us all!! Why?!? So Big Brother can spy on us! I bet I get banned for saying this!
Regions have consistently slapped me about with random overdraft fees every four months, even though I had money in my account. This is when I get my student money too. When I log on to look at my account history, it looks nothing like it did in the days previous. Debits that had cleared are placed back into a pending status and they charge 36$ for each of these debts that did not it will not clear as a result of their fees. The rest of my transaction history will be upside down and I noticed balances are shifted. I have been keeping screenshots and deposit receipts because I have had it and I’m planning legal action. Regions have been doing this so long. It started out as a $36 charge here and there and now they charge 108 every month, just before my student money comes in. The reps are contradictory in the reasoning and I formation they give and each one gives different numbers and reasoning for this
This same situation happened with me. Charged me almost 350.00 in ODF. File a complaint with the federal reserve to have them look into it and make sure you opt out.
The best advice would be to Opt Out of the ODP limit. It’s the limit causing you to domino your account. Second, balance your check book every month. You will be able to see where your funds are going. Keep tract of what merchants your allow to take funds out of your account. Those merchants are known for causing issues. I recommend using a bill pay company where you send the payment not allow merchant to debit your account with debit card.
I use bank of America, and I too have noticed that when I login and checkout my checking account that things are rearranged, deposits that should included, are being held one or more days as pending? Transactions that are withdrawing able to overdraft as deposit still pending?
I started taking screen shots also,
When I realized they changed the order of transactions to benefit their selves for fees!
I complained about a overdraft charge from a check that the cashier held later in month, The bank was right though my account was insufficient.
But I opted out of overdraft protection, so I asked them why they didn’t reject check?
They said the law states it’s at their discretion weither they choose to pay or not Not mine.
Then they sent me a little chart of overdrafting and fee’s, and check paid. And example of not paid and return check & NSF funds fee’s?
I thought wow I’m in way out of my league here?
There pro’s are manipulating my bank account to thier favor..
And sadly there’s no goverment or consumer protection to stop them.
Being sued, and each customer recieved a whopping $5 by the way,
Yet they are still rearranging, adding unjustified fees, and being congratulated in the media last year for bringing in highest profits for shareholders,
They are no different then the payday loan companies, except may be they have more freedom to steal without watchful eyes.
That’s financial abuse! Hope you can fight that!
Regions has consistently slapped my about with random overdraft fees every four months, even though I had money in my account. This is when I get my student money too. When I log on to look at my account history, it looks nothing like it did in the days previous. Debits that had cleared are placed back into a pending status and they charge 36$ for each of these debits that did not it will not clear as a result if their fees. The rest of my transaction history will be upside down and I noticed balances are shifted. I have been keeping screenshots and deposit receipts because I have had it and I’m planning legal action. Regions has been doing this so long. It started out as a $36 charge here and there and now they charge 108 every months, just before my student money comes in. The reps are contradictory in the reasoning and I formation they give and each one gives different numbers and resoning for this.
I live in Memphis TN, I’m preparing to contact my attorney about Region Bank
Banks are charging overdraft fees right down to the minute rather than business day.
However transactions are not timestamped and batch processing is arbitrary and inconsistent.
This especially affects low income households on OD FEES
Capital One Bank charges no fees for anything, no minimum balance, no OD ETC
it’s a crime that they are not mentioned in this article and illustrates how the influence of money exists in all we ate told or NOT told!
Credit unions are doing a scam of their own now a days. They were supposed to be closed 3 days with branches open and changed it to 5 days with branches closed. After the update, my direct deposit started coming over a week late and discovered their using a loophole in the system to use my funds for a week before I get them.
The Federal reserve isn’t even a part of the government. I can make a business and call it Federal Burgers. That is the Federal reserve. Infowars.com
Yes you are correct they don’t regulate anything…so what is their role…exactly??
BB&T does this – I had an account with them for over 20 years and probably paid thousands in fees – I had a fraudulent activity and went to the bank – was told I had to close old account and open new one -I protested but they won. While I was out of town a deposit and transaction occurred on same day – overdrawn. When went to them to get it straight they had closed me out as I had an overdraft. I went to Robins Federal – they do deposits 1st!!
My bank charged me 68.00 for 2 checks on the 1st then reversed them because my automatic deposit went in at midnight and the checks were posted on the 2nd along with my deposit. Then then turned around and charged me 68.00 again though they already reversed it. I contacted them and said they would have to get back to me. The deposit was there on the 2nd and the checks cleared also on the 2nd but I was still charged 34.00 x 2=68.00. the bank teller said well we have no control on what the post meaning the order they come in. This is such BS and a scam. It should be deposits first then any debit, checks etc. afterwards.
I gave wells fargo 8992.00… they deposited 2020,92…. then sat on the rest in an other area ..this was to catch me up for the mortgage and insurance.. this crap wasnt a hold on the amount,, I got my next months statement like I had NEVER EVEN MADE A PAYMENT!! And to make it awesome… I have 600 in fees I have no idea what they are for, were taken out first.. before the principal was even taken….all at once for 4 months…. and they didnt apply the rest of my money for well over a month… it was in ‘unapplied funds’ I had good credit before this nightmare bought my note.. I have a super interest.. and they have been trying to force us to refinance…. its fucked up. They are not applying my payments.. its called servicer or institution fraud.. yet they get to continue on… my principal has been getting short changed and a big discrepancy is in the numbers.. its a fixed mortgage.. nothings changed.. yet my escrow has 2500 more and my interest gets 5000 more in it all the sudden for 6 months. I didnt ask for this shitty bank.. and everything was fine without them.. I seriously have issue with the people that write our laws UNWILLING TO ENFORCE THEM
I have dealt with Wells Fargo in the past. THEY ARE THE WORST. Refinanced to try to get away from them and they bought the loan right back from my new lender. Nothing changed and I was out closing costs. Good luck
This is interesting, my credit union of 6 years now after they have opened have gotten greedy. They now charge $8.00 for an account as well as putting through withdrawals before deposits, even thought the deposit was made before 3 pm and the previous day. The CU still put the withdrawal first then the deposit.
Then they tell me that that is the way their banking software works. I should find an attorney. This is not the first time either. I am tired of watching banks to make sure they are honest.
I also thought that banks had to check at least twice during the day that the funds are in your account before starting to charge you -> one in the a.m. and one in the p.m.?
I have the same problem, im gtting frustrated with chase.they seem to know my check is coming in direct deposit so instead of processing my online transfer they hit me with overdraft fee and than tells me my deposit was too late wh he n I knw it didn’t. Than they tell me different time zone from what the other bankr was telli in g me. I exceeded the amount of reversals because of this. Ilove chase but this is the only problem, can I sue them, I really wanna sue them
Thanks for sharing a great piece! Most people don’t know how their bank works, which could harm themselves in the long run.
https://www.scoreshuttle.com
This is how they’ll end up getting their lunch eaten by Venmo
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All of these practices were made illegal in 2015.
Deposits MUST be run first largest to smallest, CASH is always first – even if counted from night deposits earlier cut-off in the day, widthdrawal “sets” MUST be made in the order in which they were recieved, then smallest amount first to largest amount.
Do you know where I can find that information? That’s what I thought but I can’t find Amything on this?
I have noticed 5 banks -what about M&T???? they seem to charge for evrything- deposits, at,s withdrawals– why?? it your money and they don’t seem to understand the little person here- like a friend of mine- put in $1000 was charge $5-15- hen when they wanted to use the atm they were charged $4-10- and withdrawal by Teller was more!! Now if you had direct deposit- it was to be Free??? NO way Hose””” thy are a grudging stingy, farce of a bank- and they have plenty of money out of the country! all kinds of shister lawyers- money grubbing rich ones who like to hide thir money and lie about your money not being there!!!How do we stop these type of banks- they shul be shut down and put in jail fo all the outlandish lies and filthy techniques they use to keep our money in their Hands!!! We need to stop them now before we can’t even use our own money- they keep like the governement- in special accounts- wait for the interest payments an secret accounts so they can stay ahead on thir money- but actually rape our accounts!!
Chase is a rip off plain and simple iam a business guy that receives most of its money via ach deposits that get posted after the withdrawal that causes od fees and nsf fees, iam very surprised they have not been sued for this they are ripping off there customers daly.
Interesting . Wells Fargo. So back in probly 2002 or 2003ish I had an account with wells Fargo. I was being very good and diligent about updating and balancing my checkbook properly and was on point. It’s Xmas and I owe my friend money and she needs it to buy a train ticket to visit her family. So I get cash back on a purchase to pay her back, knowing I’m going to incur ONE OVERDRAFT FEE for this and willing to accept so she can see her family since I owed her money.
Then I see I have 5 overdraft fees on little $5 purchases.
I called the bank and argued with them.
They explained that all the transactions came in on the same day due to holidays . And that they always pay the highest items first in case it’s our rent or something. I said bounce my rent check then. Don’t pay it and then charge me $35 5 times.
I said so basically my check register means absolutely nothing and you’re just going to arrange things in your favor to get money out of us. I even asked for a person above them or a Complaint dept just to tell them I think it’s shady. Then I closed my acct.
When they made a law that didn’t allow banks to pay an item and charge $35 every time anymore, I had the bank I was with which might’ve been Bofa, harassing me constantly because if you wanted that option you could if you opt in for it. Did I want to opt in? They kept trying to convince me I wanted to. Hell no stop trying to get around the law which was created to stop that bullshit.
Patelco is just a wolf in sheep’s clothing and is no different than any bank really. Sometimes they’d honor something if it was off by a few cents. Another time they didn’t. I had made a deposit just to cover a carsharing reservation . I was literally off by a penny. They declined the transaction even though a recent deposit had been made for pretty much the same amount. Which resulted in my account with the car sharing company to be punished and restricted from certain amenities. Then months later after no deposits or activity in my account, they honored a $300 check that I had to give to a check cashing place for a payday loan. Which should have bounced and then I make payment arrangements with the payday loan company. But no, they honored it!! And sent me a nasty letter about my irresponsible banking behaviour. I’m sorry I briefly worked at bank of the west and had we looked at the acct prior to processing a check as we had to do in order to be sure funds were available, and saw no recent deposits or any activity for 6 months we would have declined that check. period. Had we seen a recent deposit for a very similar amount we would accept it. I went in to patelco and asked what their guidelines are they follow on paying an item or not and I was told they don’t have any. The only one who made any irresponsible banking actions was patelco themselves for honoring a check for an account with no money or activity in it for almost 6 months. They then closed my account before I could. Leading me to believe I could close it myself. Thus allowing themselves to have the last word AND damage my credit even though THEY fucked up. There was no reason whatsoever for them to honor that check. It was just a check I had to leave as collateral for a payday loan and I was going to pay it in person in cash at the payday loan store.but I got delayed and was unable to make it before they closed on the due date and they submitted the check to my bank. I expected it to be declined since they declined the last time even when I was only a penny short. I was surprised that they paid the check. It didn’t make sense .
Now for the past 7+ years I have had a netspend acct with ace cash express and it acts like a bank account without all the bullshit. I pay $5 a month so I don’t get a 50 cent fee on all transactions. My paychecks are direct deposited every payday and I use my card for purchase and until recently WA able to rent a car at enterprise and carsharing companies like zipcar.
It is THE BEST BANK ACCOUNT I HAVE EVER HAD. and I’ve had accts at bank of America Bank of the west , us Bank, patelco and they have ALL been guilty of screwing me out of hundreds of dollars in fees. They are the worst entity to have your account info. They just help themselves to your money whenever they want. They rearrange your transactions to get themselves money in fees.
My netspend account has not done that to me. I get a $10 cushion each month and don’t get charged fees for using it. It really is the best account I’ve ever had. But now I’m forced to go back to a bank. Because nobody will accept my “prepaid” card . If that’s the case then all banks are prepaid card accounts. I’ll be doing the exact same thing with a regular Bank I just unfortunately will have to deal with bank drama and their schemes to gouge me. Because I’m tired of being denied using uber or renting a car and other services. I’m heartbroken and angry because my netspend account has been the best account I’ve ever had. Banks should emulate their system. I don’t get overdraft fees cuz they’ll decline it after the cushion has been depleted..no fees. I only pay $5 a month for it.
I’m gonna try golden 1 but I don’t trust them . I’m only going to deposit money into it when I need to use it for something specific.
In case anyone cared tp read my long ass rant. Lol.
Wells Fargo is the absolutely worst! They do everything possible to charge you fees. They don’t give a s**t about customers. Withdraws and debits are always processed first, so you get screwed over with NSF’s and overdrafts should a payment go out the same day.
Thanks for every other informative website. The place else may just I am getting
that kind of info written in such a perfect manner?
I’ve a mission that I’m just now operating on, and I have been at the glance out for such information.
If you don’t have $500-$1,000 as savings, you have failed at life. I am 27 years old and make $73,000 a year – paid for college myself, graduated with no debts, and live within my means. I do not buy frivolous things and instead invest my money into things like education, mutual funds, stocks, etc. I do not buy items like brand new televisions or new cars as these items rapidly depreciate.
If you work hard, save you money, and invest it you can easily make a $1,000 cushion – that’s saving $20 a week. Even a person that has a full time job making $10 an hour should be able to do that.
Also, if you can’t feed ’em, don’t breed ’em – meaning if you can’t afford kids, don’t have them. I don’t have children yet because at $70k a year a college education for my child plus my own living expenses would be unaffordable and affect the child’s future.
Oh good for you. Where do you live? And congratulations you make 78,000 a year. Some of us only make 25,000 or less!! Pat yourself on the back for being one of the 1% . Howd you pay for college yourself? When you were 18? Trust fund? How long were you in college then? 25 years?
my bad i got so bothered i forgot you said you are 27. Im not buying that you paid for college yourself unless it was with a trust fund. You must not live in California
Right Anon e mouse definitely not California it’s insanely expensive here. I could tell because 75k here is low income. They say now days you have to make over 100k to be considered middle class. All the suggestions Anonymous said doesn’t hold water here.
Anon, you’re privileged and ignorant of it. You’re 27 making 73k. Most of us read that first sentence and silently told you to GFY.
Yes!!!!
I did a transfer and my bank time stamped the transaction for 4 hours ahead. This caused several overdrafts. When I called and asked the teller he said anything I put into the atm after 7 pm gets counted the next day. I explained that I put the money in before 5 he says it shows up as an atm deposit. Innever left my house. It’s funny because the transfer showed up right away but the time stamp made it appear that I put it in later. What can I do because this is robbery. I also have screen shots of my transactions because I need to document all my transactions. I don’t trust them. Please tell me who I should contact. Thank you in advance.
I have experienced with a lot of bank and the worst bank that I have is Wells Fargo, I used my debit card like 7 pm and then 2 checks came at night for clearing same day , when i used my debit card I still have sufficient balance, when my 2 checks came nite the ff day they charge me for 2 overdraft ( I have $200+ check and one $2,600+ check , I was overdrawn by $500 but they still charge me for two overdrawn , then after a day they charge me for using my debit card , but I used my debit card before the check came and I was overdrawn by one check only , $105 for 1 day imagine how they killing us. Debit card shld be deducted right away , how come they can do that ? Where can we seek help to stop this Wells Fargo’s activities and to file a class action law suits. I will close my account once all my postdated check for my vendors were paid. Please don’t open an account with this bank so you will not be a victim.
what about a bank that charges you overdraft fees because you have a pending item that took you under your available balance…this is what happened to me recently with Regions…
I had technically had money in my account to cover everything until March 30th, then a charge for 99.99 was charged and was pending, Regions charged me 5 overdraft charges because they post largest to smallest, right? so being my PENDING (not yet posted) item made my available balance in the red, even tho the 99.99 wasn’t posted until April 1, and the other 5 charges came out of pending and where posted on March 30th, they charged me 5 overdraft charges… $180 bucks… so my ledger looks funny as you may think…it looks like i had money to cover all my charges, i had a balance of $11 and some change…then a charge for $180 in overdraft charges all posted on March 30th, then on April 1st (2 days later) the 99.99 posted and another $36 NSF fee applied…this has to be illegal for them to do… it just isn’t making any sense to me at all how they do there accounting lol, needless to say i am going to the bank in the morning and speaking with someone about this… ok they POST largest to smallest… that charge didn’t post till April 1st, it was still pending, so how can they charge me 5 NSF fees on stuff that actually posted on March 30th…this is rediculus
The info on TD is bogus. I have had accounts with them starting in 1988.
Cash is credited IMMEDIATELY.
Any ACH’s, checks, or debits are covered by any CASH deposits made during banking
hours, by ATM up until 8pm, and by transfer from another account online up to 11PM.
They do checks largest to smallest.
You gotta stop making stuff up.
The most important factor is that it is our money, the banks are making a huge profit on. Why should it cost more for us to use our money. It is unsafe to put in banks as they are thiefs, it is unsafe to keep at home as it could get stolen. So what do you do. Yes people are working harder, making less and cannot afford to put gas in the car much less save for a rainy day. So these who think it is easy to save if you have extra money, then go to the local banks ask them to put in $1000 to the 10 poorest accounts in the bank. These loud mouth opinionated people need to put their money where their mouth is and help others who are less fortunate. Many people are in situations not of their own accord, but due to family issues, declining health, inheriting family members that was not their calling but stepped up to the plate, and just the lousy economics in America, and job loss. Banks need to remember their customers are the reason they have a job and learn customer service. It is our money in that bank. Put in deposits immediately, then deduct the ATMs, withdrawals, checks, etc in the order that makes the most for the customer and not the banks own bleeding hearts. If I won the lottery I would start my own bank and uses morals, values and God’s principals to help with banking that was in the best interest to the banker whose money is my responsibility in my bank, and I would be a good steward of that responsibility.
Chase, who took over Washington Mutual, posts the LARGEST debit against the balance first, causing the biggest deduction to the account, then posts the smaller ones, which then can get charged $34 per overdraft fee. The logic to this is that they’re doing you a favor. This is their explanation: the larger amount is paid first, which can be your mortgage payment, then they pay the smaller amount second, which can be your electric bill. Wouldn’t you prefer to have your mortgage payment paid rather than the electric? About the most illogical excuse for a money grab I ever heard. Let’s consider that they’ve most likely paid all of them. Then that premise holds no water. And let’s consider that if they’re not paying them all, then you would want your electric to stay on, and not pay the OD fee on that amount, and the mortgage payment would be the only payment incurring the OD fee. By their policy, you have the next day to cover the negative balance before they reject your mortgage payment, so once you cover it, your mortgage pyment (the largest amount) would be paid anyway. So as example, they post $200, $20, $20 against a $187 balance causing 3 -$34 OD charges, because they’re doing you a favor.
I would like to know how to sue them to get my money back. Region’s Bank will sometimes take money out of your account twice . and is always doing what this post is talking about. And for the person who thinks a person is living over thier means if this has ever happened to them must have never been mac n cheese broke. Because you DO NOT have to be living above your means for the banks to take your money !
I would like to know how they can be sued, so I can get my money returned. That has happened to me several times. And sometimes things were taken out of my account twice !
Today Golden 1 Credit Union in Davis charged my sister a fee and returned checks for their being used out of number sequence. I couldn’t believe it, unless they are used in perfect sequence, they will return checks, charge her a fee and she has to cover charges from the
other bank too. Is this legal? I asked the bank when I went in with her when that practice
came in effect and why she wasn’t notified about the policy. This isn’t the first time that she
has grabbed the wrong box, she suffers from a mental illness and is not the most focused and
organized person. What can we do about this absurdity?
I know the feeling about Stupid charges!
I just noticed my online statements added a 3.00 Check image fee?
3 checks= $9.00 just in one area, one month?
Sneaky, sneaky banks…
I’m a Full time college student who works two jobs. I don’t have an extra grand laying around. what i do have is a bank that overs to transfer 25 dollars into my savings from checking at the end of the month. My Savings account will be used for emergencies then incidentals.
Add First National BAnk to this list,.. They do the same thing. How can banlks legally get away with this. They also put Payroll Direct Deposit on hold which is against the law. They can not do that this according to the Department of the Treasury but they do it.
M and T Bank used to nail me all the time for overdraft fee’s by changing my withdrawal amounts so that the withdrawal largest would negate my previous withdrawals/charges//pending amounts, so that the last or largest was rearranged FIRST to wipe the account about dry and not be able to cover the other costs/charges.
They would do this towards the end of the month, holding/pending charges for up to a week or longer, I would be getting or making a deposit within a day or so, so I might over draft the account in essence to get gas or something I actually NEEDED, they would then pend the deposit, rearrange everything and get me for up to a dozen over drafts, sending out multiple letters, even after the deposit cleared.
I always called this “stacking and “fixing”. I got good at recording this and keeping a record of it, but all to no avail when calling and asking, WHY, due to the fact I had friends with business’s that would say the deduction to my account cleared, days before and they had the cash in hand//their account cleared and available; yet according to my M and T online banking statement//overview it would show totally different totals and deductions and show that one might even still be pending, and then stack that accordingly so as to use it to get an overdraft.
Sorry for my horrid grammar and such, anyways, this has ended for the most part, even though they still stack, fix and pend a lot and rearrange it a lot, I have only had a few overdrafts that amounted to 35-38 dollars and several that were like 10-20.
I have even had cash put in take a few days to clear, when cashing a check drawn on m and t, I would cash the check, have cash in hand, then say, deposit this here and this here, and that cash would be held for up to five days at times.
Now I cash the check, drive around the block and THEN and ONLY THEN deposit the cash.
Only one time have they tried to put it in and hold it and I went into the bank and said I cashed a 3500 dollar check on their bank, then later brought in 1500/2000 to deposit, so why was it considered still the check, and why if drawn on their bank and funds were available, why was it not available to me?
They fixed it as a cash deposit and it was available. Which made it easier for me, but I have waited up to 5 days for cash to clear when they claimed it was relative to the check I cashed perhaps up to an our previous and stopped back in to deposit that cash so as to be avail.
Okay now I’m being redundant, anyways, M and T is now pretty much righteous with me and even though my spouse uses PNC and demands I change, I will stay with M and T.
It’s also my mothers bank, so that is another reason.
Thank you.
kk
Just out of curiosity how many posting read the terms and conditions just on this page? How many (being honest I know it is hard) knew you grant Consumerism Commentary an irrevolcable license to use, display, republish, sell, alter, or delete your comment in any way and for any reason? If this company decides to sell this quote for a profit without sharing that information with me I HAVE given consent to do so by the terms and conditions CLEARLY POSTED.
Now…banks operate in the same manner. In just a few short minutes I was able to check the posting orders of some of the banks listed in the comments above by simply going to the websites of those financial institutions. They are in the website! Your job as a consumer is to make sure you know the rules of the financial institution you are dealing with. It is the job of the consumer (you) to know the rules of their bank not the bank to know the rules of the other banks. I’m not saying there are never errors made but you should know your bank operates overall and that information is generally clearly posted on those sites per federal regulation.
Just maaaaybe instead of a few minutes fuming online to strangers we should be more concerned about educating ourselves on how our accounts operate.
Oh you are wrong about Citizen. They post all withdrawn from your account first. After all them go through than they apply your deposits. So they are too a bank that traps you. They have do e it to me 2 already. Its huge B.S… my direct despoits should post first but nope. They post after any debts
Anyone aware the automatic deposits are sent to bank 2 days prior? They sit on it until your payday.
People are pretty stupid. If you are going to spend money, check and make sure you have money to spend, first. If you have automated withdrawals, make sure your balance IS ALWAYS such that the withdrawl will go through. If you are depositing a check, yes, it will take a day or two to process. If you are depositing at an ATM, it takes the bank time to open your envelope and make sure it actually has the reported amount in it. This isn’t rocket science and you don’t have to be rich to be responsible. I make sure my bank account is weeks ahead of my bills on a little more than $15k/yr. If you choose to live so close to the wire, you deserve every late fee and overdraft charge you get.
Most of us don’t wear our checker pants up to our belly buttons or comb our hair to one side. 80% of us live pay check to pay check, so don’t criticize, this is a place to spew and not to let everyone know we make less then $18k a year how sad is that? oh wait that wasn’t nice to say but if you do make that then you deserve every back lash you get! how did that feel? on to the proper subject shall we? we just got back a check from the back stating they took 4 too may over draft fees out after the fact… how do you like them eggs??
I wish they did that more often.
Julie (a real person)
M&T Bank charged me over $4,000 in NSF fees in a 3 month time period. I know how to manage my money and knew immediately that something was a miss with the bank. After going through every transaction over the 3 month time period I came to the conclusion that it was the banks business practices that caused all the fees and not my banking practices. I went to the bank manager several times and explain my findings to her and demanded a refund. Of course she refused to refund any of my money. Not even one food. Few months later I got a check in the mail from m&t Bank for $3,000. I knew the check was for all of those fees they had charged me an error oh, so I called and asked for the remainder of my fees refunded. I was told that the money was not for my non-sufficient fund fees. The woman I was talking to told me that they were just going through people’s accounts and refunding some fees. Yeah right! few weeks later I got another check for m&t $4,000 which was the total of all the fees they charged me. few weeks later I got a notification of a class action suit against m&t, Wells Fargo, Bank of America, etc. As it turned out I was right from the beginning it was their practices that was causing the enormous amount of fees for myself and many other consumers. I thought the class action suit took care of some of that but obviously it hasn’t.
I got once into never-ending loop of overdraft charges with Bank of Scotland. And since they charge £5 a day it’s easy to imagine how difficult is it to stand back on your feet when on low income or unemployed. Starting with a few quids into overdraft you’re owing almost a half grand after just three months. That’s even more expensive than payday loans and provident-like loans.
Generally speaking banks want your money and they don’t care whether you can afford their charges and fees.
TD (formerly Commerce) Bank will charge an overdraft even if you deposit money before the pending charges become actual charges. I’ve been charged overdraft on items that never actually charged or charged AFTER the deposit. When I inquired about $105 in o/d fees even though my account was not overdrawn their response was: “In the event you do not have the availability of funds in your account to cover all of the items presented that Business Day, a $35.00 overdraft fee may be assessed for each item, as a result of the processing order from highest to lowest. Pending transactions are also considered for the purpose of determining the amount of funds in your account to be used to pay other items presented against your account.”
So whether I cover the pending overdraft or not they still charge!
This applying transactions from higher to lower is “bull”…. Transactions should be processed in the order they come in, period… find me a bank that does that and that will be the bank I do business with.
some consumers are unclear about what type of account they have. some businesses unfortunately still operate on the don’t ask don’t tell. but if we ask and you don’t disclose, this will make you liable for those overdrafts and fees. then there are people that are just cheap and don’t realize the benefits of their banking relationship. some good some not so good!!!
I have an account at PNC bank, my account showed an amount deducted as ACH debit from capital one which I did not authorized and I don’t know who did it, PNC keep sayng the can’t do any thing with ACH debit , please some one advise me what to do, how to get that money back
From my experience with PNC of Monroeville, PA. They’re a lot better to talk to if you go into the branch. From what I know from ACH debits, that’s something you set up to be withdrawn. If it’s not call Capital One and ask their customer service.
Everybody already knows banks are like politicians, out for only them selves, greedy. Thats why so many people hide their money at home. Am i right? YES!
I had a whole page of things BOA has done in the past and now my computer is acting up and erased the whole thing. Therefore, I will cut to the punch line and hope my computer allows it. It is my firm belief that we should all revert to burying our money in a Mason jar under the mattress or in a coffee can – if we don’t have a back yard. Face it~we are not making any money off our bank accounts. The banks are making a small fortune on one branch alone. It might even be a good idea to go back to the barter system so we don’t have to worry about checks, etc. Since that is not likely to happen, maybe our bosses should have the bank accounts and take out cash to pay their employees. Then, for those who need to mail off a payment (and who doesn’t?) we can go to the local grocery store’s customer service or the local 7-11 and BUY A MONEY ORDER WITH THE CASH WE HAVE ON HAND. The banks can then do what we do every day of our lives and wonder where the money went! And OMG! how am I going to survive? If they aren’t all too busy scrambling to find another job, maybe it will hit their pea-brain that KARMA just made a delicious withdrawal/deposit for us all. Maybe they will be at the next food bank we go to. Ah-h-h the possibilities are endless.
After making a deposit of a large cashier check into my bank of america checking account, I waited 4 days to see that it was clear. On the forth day I saw that it was showing that it was clear in my statement online…so thinking it showed up a cleared I spent some of the money…by the end of the day they had taken the amount back out of the account saying the check was no good…well why did they lead me to believe it was good and cleared. I’ll tell you why, so they could get the overdraft of $35 on every withdrawal….I am a low income person…struggling to put food on my table and pay my bills. Now this…I am over draft $950 with no way to recover…what do i do now?
I deposited a check with Cadence Bank. I asked them after 7 days if it had gone through because I didn’t trust my ex’s check. They said That it had not been returned I could expect it would not come back. I had 13 overdraft fees( $507.00) when that came back 2 days later. How does a bank hold a check 9 days before returning it. Banks don’t use U.S. mail to transfer from bank to bank. That was ridiculous.
My sister in law works for the Federal Reserve. Anyone can take a scheduled tour. You have to be cleared. But they told us (in the checking department), that BOA is the worst offender of all the banks. That the Fed Reserve clears funds in 24 hours and there is no reason for the extremely long holds.
Ended up with TD Bank by default after my community bank failed. My pension is due and payable on the last day of the month and was always credited that way with the community bank. Not with TD. It does not post until the first. They are literally sitting on billions of free dollars for a day. It’s criminal and by the time the end of the month rolls around, I’m flat broke!
I would not trust any commercial bank. Remember, investment banks are the only banks that work your money–Commercial banks only work you.
I also have been a victim of BOA’s policy to manipulate the order by which checks are processed. When I spoke to them I stated that I had been a cusotmer for over 30 years (show a little mercy, and beginning with Barnett Bank in 1978) The response? “Well if I have been a bank customer for over 30 years I should have known better” So I am happy that they will answer for their arrogance. Also, I have a young friend who worked for Wachovia, she had a postion that allowed her to grow in the company and had to attend classes. She told me that “This is how banks make their money by manipulating the order by which checks are processed.” She learned that this is their practice. It’s disqusting! Bank officials get their astonomical bonuses and it’s at the expense of the working class who live from paycheck to paycheck.
I just finished an interesting conversation with BBVA Compass regarding a $38 nsf fee charged on an nonreturned check that was presented to them on Monday, Oct.3. An elctronic deposit for retirement funds from the state of Texas, payable the 1st(Saturday) was received and posted on the 3rd, resulting in a positive bank balance at the time the check was processed. The check that cleared was dated and mailed on Saturday(1st), obviously received on Oct. 3, and presented the 3rd. The explanation,of this transaction being nsf was that by dating the check on the first, I was KITING funds since the wire had not been deposited and even though the check was not presented for payment. The explanation was that the bank always relies on the check date to see if funds were sufficient at the time it was written. The moral of the story is (1) do not write and hold unditributed checks and (2) find a more honest bank.
While banking at Wells Fargo, inside a safeway store without a drive up window, I nearly went crazy. When I opened the account, they said that to get overrdraft protection, I’d have to open a savings account, with which I could call them anytime to have the funds transfered to checking. Well, I called one day to have them transfer the $ and they said they could no longer do that by phone. I would have to either come in or do it on my computer. I am disabled and on O2 24/7. There is always a long line without seating. So I went online and thought I had done the transfer. The next things that happened was my rent check was returned. I called the bank and they said they could tell I tried to make a transfer but it didn’t go through. How could they tell I tried if it didn’t go through? On my online statement it showed that they had paid the rent check first, and the next day returned it, in order to pay 2 amall checks, charging me $35.00 for each and charged me $5.00 to transfer my money and then another $35.00 for the returned check. The exact amount I ended up overdrawn, was the exact amount of all the charges added up. I don’t bank there now and refuse to pay the fees. I filed a disability complaint that Wells Fargo was made to send me by the Feds. Hip Hip Hooray!
I’m pretty sure Chase’s answer is completely false. It seems that they post checks/withdraws from highest to lowest before processing deposits, ACH or otherwise.
It should be noted that CASH transactions are to be processed immediately on the same business day the transaction is done and be part of your available balance as per Federal Depository Regulations (Regulation CC…)
The following types of deposits must be made available on the first business day following the banking day of deposit (“next-day availability”):
1. Cash deposited in person to one of your employees.
2. Electronic payments received by your institution for deposit in an account — An electronic payment is considered received (deposited) when your institution has received both payment in collected funds and information on the account and the amount to be credited. (Under other rules, funds for most electronic deposits are made available on the day of deposit.)
3. U.S. Treasury checks deposited in an account held by a payee of the check — Unlike deposit types listed in 4 through 8 below, which pertain to deposits made in person, Treasury checks deposited at an ATM owned by your institution (a “proprietary” ATM) must be accorded next-day availability.
4. U.S. Postal Service money orders deposited in person to one of your employees and into an account held by a payee of the check.
5. Federal Reserve Bank and Federal Home Loan Bank checks deposited in person to one of your employees and into an account held by a payee of the check.
6. State or local government checks deposited in person to one of your employees and into an account held by a payee of the check, if your institution is in the same state as the payor of the check. (Note: If the customer desires next-day availability of funds from these checks, you may require use of a special deposit slip.)
7. Cashier’s, certified, or teller’s checks deposited in person to one of your employees and into an account held by a payee of the check. (Note: If the customer desires next-day availability of funds from these checks, you may require use of a special deposit slip.)
8. Checks drawn on an account held by your institution (“on-us checks”) deposited in person to one of your employees or at on-premises ATMs or night depositories, if the branch or branches involved are in the same state or check-processing region.
9. Deposits that include some checks of types not listed above — The first $100 (or the total amount of the deposit if it is less than $100) of non-“next-day” checks must be made available the next day.
Exceptions: When deposits of types 1, 4, 5, 6, and 7 are not made in person (for example, when they are made at one of your ATMs), the funds must be made available by the second business day. Deposits, cash or check, made at an ATM that you do not own (a “nonproprietary” ATM) must be made available by the fifth business day.
They’ve modified this a bit and if the ATM can ascertain that it’s a cash transaction (Those nifty new envelopeless and formless ATMs…), it’s supposed to be processed the moment they receive the money in the ATM as if it were a teller transaction because the system knows it just got processable cash. Wells Fargo’s ATMs all do this now (and are treated this way)- and there’s other banks working towards this. Any of the above mentioned deposits are supposed to be treated basically as a cash transaction and are to be made available for use the following day if not sooner and they’re supposed to be “processed” first. PERIOD. If you get zapped by “processing” operations like this article discusses- you should be able to read them the riot act from Regulation CC and get them to undo it all. The main reason they do this sort of crap is because while it’s illegal, most people don’t know their rights and won’t call the banks on the carpet over it.
this JUST happened to me…I have a compass account and noticed an overdraft fee..however my statement never reflected I was overdrawn. Was told by the customer service agent that it was their policy to debit first then credit…so, the can line their pockets with $38 per overdraft. There should be some standardization to bank policy. I’m still shocked…
Banks are all over the place in regards to how and when funds are debited and credited. I have deposited many Chase written checks to my Chase account. Obviously Chase immediately knows if the check is good and can make all funds available immediately. Sometimes they do and sometimes they dont’!
A few times Chase did the switch-a-roo and did not make funds available till the next day. I asked a Chase manager and he said “he’s heard about that, and sometimes it’s kind of hit and miss”.
With the new legistlation with credit card companies, the banks will continue to find creative ways to screw the customer. Of course one can alway have plenty of money in the bank and never have this problem. My issue is that they have rules that their own branch managers cannot clearly define. I showed receipts to the branch manager and all he could say was “hmmmm. that’s weird”.
The banks have ran many models to see which scenario will generate the most revenue. They change accordingly. Yes, it’s business, but it’s also very deceptive.
Example: I have $1000 in the bank.
9:00am I buy breakfast $10
12:00PM, I buy lunch $20
6:00PM, I buy dinner $30
8:00PM, I buy a new TV $995
*My account by the time I buy the TV should be overdrawn. I will get a $30 overdraft fee.
However, many banks will debit the TV first even though it was the last transaction, then my breakfast, lunch, and dinner so each will overdraft for total of $90.
Opt out of “overdraft protecton”. The TV purchase will be “declined”, but there would then be no overdraft on any of the purchases.
No I tried that, the bank said they have the legal right to decide if they want to cover the check or not, even if I opt out, and sent me a little overdraft example, over draft 120.00 Check paid = 155 including overdraft fee, compared to returned check -120.00 plus returned fee NSF -150.00,
Shows 120 plus 35 fee paid, opposed to 120 plus nsf return fee 30= -150 negative not paid.
Makes it look like the logical choice, and most times I’d agree, if they had credited my automatic deposit right away, there would of been funds to pay In Full?
I’ve been screwed by ING several times. I’ve checked my account online and the money I’m waiting for has been deposited. So, I go to the ATM and make a withdrawal. When I come back, miraculously, the deposit that was there when I checked has suddenly disappeared, only to reappear a few minutes AFTER I made the withdrawal, thus allowing ING to charge me an overdraft fee. It’s only a few cents, but it pisses me off. They’re making millions of dollars a year by doing this with other customers.
I used to love ING but now rarely use them as they’ve become just as scammy as most other banks.
A few cents? while I understand that the deposit disappearing just long enough to charge you is annoying, that sounds way better than what I’ve experienced with WF! I will have to look into this..
Yes, Wells posts then removes credit card transactions you make with the debit/credit card the following day so that you think your balance includes that withdrawal when it doesn’t. An attempt to generate overdrafts. No longer with them. They are one of the WORST in my opinion.
I have an account with Compass (a relative of Wachovia), which I have had for many years. They post debits first, then credits. I was just charged 2 $38 fees on the same day when this happened. I asked for an explanation or remedy. They did not respond. I asked again a few weeks later, again – no response.
I just cancelled the direct deposit and auto student loan payment from that account. I’m firing Compass. I noticed that Capital One is offering totally free checking – no minimums – that pays 1% interest.
Thank you, thank you. I’ve been trying to find “Standard Banking Practices” regarding deposits and withdrawals. Apparently there are no standards. I’ve been doing battle with Alture Credit Union over just this matter. If you deposit cash at an ATM ” DO NOT” use your ATM card until they decide to empty the terminal. When they find out you really did deposit cash, well it’s just to bad for the client because you just racked up about $ 300.00 in overdraft fees.
Thanks so very much for the info.
Myra
I’ve found that if your bank doesn’t give you any up front money when you deposit through the ATM and you have cash to deposit. I use a deposit envelope and a deposit slip and drop it in the night deposit. It may not go in right away the next day until midnight, but at least you don’t have to worry about making it there before the banking business day is closed.
If, I paid overdraft fees to Bank of America
You should have recieved a notice to be part of the class for the BOA thing. I got mine in the mail last week. Unfortunatley the customers who were taken advantage of will get a few bucks (likely less than the cost of one OD fee) and the lawyers representing the class will reap many many millions of dollars.
I work at a bank. Cash deposits should always be made in a branch with a teller. They are available immediatley. If your bank holds cash deposits made in person at a branch, find a new bank. Never spends more than you have in your account and you will never become overdrawn. Opt OUT of your banks standard overdraft practices. This will save you lots of time and money. Also, maybe make one large withdrawl and spend cash for small purchases so they will NEVER overdraft your account due to posting order…
US BANK. Handed the teller cash. Wasn’t counted until the morning after a charge came through. $30. Considered buckling, and depositing cash to cover an upcoming charge. Problem? They’
ll just do it again. And again. And the tellers admit it! There is no apology. There is no refund. There’s not even any shame. US BANK Class actions anyone?
I went to the drive up window at US Bank to cash a government check drawn on their bank and branch. They said I’d have to come inside. I told her I was without my portable oxygen unit and I didn’t have the strength to come in. She told me it would be a $5.00 fee for a $61.00 check. Then she got a manager. She said that if I came in, they would be happy to put the $5.00 in a new account for me. Isn’t that blackmail? Either sign up with us or lose the money? I asked her where the money went. She ignored me, it probably goes to their retirement plans. Must have gotten the idea from the government.
All banks charge a fee for cashing a check with them if you do not have an account there.
And NO I do not work in banking I just want to be fair. There is plenty to complain about across the board. Fractional Reserve banking is a fraud to begin with. They loan you money, charge interest on 100% of the amount yet only have 10% of actual bank assets contributed. The Fed “creates” the remaining 90% on a computer keyboard. Gotta love it. Foreclosures are particularly an interesting concept when you have paid back more than 10% of what you originally owed. Seems to me the bank has already recouped their investment…..
I have never had this happen with US Bank. I have even made cash deposits at the bank ATM after closing (but before 7 pm) and had them count it as deposited the following day and immediately allowing access to $200 of it. Teller counter transactions are credited immediately….
Banks make money by keeping you confused. The fees are getting more creative, like charging for paper statements, using a teller for an “online” checking account, ect ect…
THE BEST NEW SCREWJOB IS THIS: Charging you to use YOUR MONEY in your LINKED SAVINGS to AVOID the “overdraft fees” …. so wait a minute, whats the interest rate on auto withdrawing 5 bucks out of MY SAVINGS CASH… to cover a $4.98 purchase… and then charging me a $5.00 for the privlage of using my own money to cover the fee… if I was standing at the bank and withdrew, and then deposited the money their would be no fee, so they argue it is “convienance” fee… In actuality, they are LENDING YOU YOUR OWN MONEY for 1 day amd charging 100% simple interest for the “right to access” your own damn money…. Bank of America, Wells … avoid….
Honestly, platforms like Serve(American Express) and paypal are the last great hope. All the bank regulation will ensure FEES WILL CREATIVELY STAY AHEAD of Legislative Law, and keep your poor “stupid” self confused. You are “stupid” because you cannot read, and comprehensively apply and adopt a 50 page legal disclosure written in a mix of latin, english, and accepted legal jargon that by it’s very nature uses a DIFFERENT DICTIONARY than an english dictionary, so the good corporate lawyers, can easily intentionally appear to be saying one thing to a “stupid commener”, but really are legally saying something quite different. That is why they make <800k a year. They can legally lie through word manipulation, and have a firm legal basis only another lawyer would be able to infer.
Three rules to live by:
1) never keep all you money in one place
2) the world makes money by taking your money
3) money is paper, and is only worth what someone is willing to give you for it… the FED can put all of the non elite in the poor house by flipping a switch (and have by adding a 1.2 trillion dollar printing session to avoid American default on money the Government bowwrowed using tax dollars not collected as leverage).
ING bank – awesome – they don't even do overdrafts, it is a "lending fee" that comes out to under a dollar per transaction… Cap One just bought them out so KEEP YOUR ACCOUNT AGREEMENT! – RESPOND WITH A CERTFIED REFUSAL LETTER when they try to change the terms.
Ally – 8 dollar overdraft fee, only 1 per day
Schwab – will pull from a linked brokerage cash balance for free
other than that, I would look for an honest local credit union.
i want to add about chase bank… you can deposit a check anytime, but they process debits as late as 11pm. your check isnt avail. to you.. but they have no problem chargingyou that overdraft fee when they allow funds transferred out at 11pm.. they know they are in the wrong because i was able to recover $120 in fees due to this shady practice.
Best thing to do is load money for online bills to a prepaid card, pay in cash when you can, and deal w/ the bank only for savings that you want to earn interest on.
Yes, BofA and now Fifth Third have settled their respective Class Action suits… in the plaintiffs’ favor. The Fifth Third settlement announcement is here:
https://www.overdraftsettlement.com/
There used to be a link on the 53.com website, but it’s aged off, apparently. In any event, I have an email from 5/3 stating that effective 3/25/11, they have revamped how they process credit and debit transactions. Basically, in chronological order, if the timestamp exists, and deposits before debits. Otherwise, in the order received, except for ACH transactions (VISA/MasterCard), which will continue to be in value order. I gather that ACH processing looses all time and date references, so they don’t have any way of knowing which came first. Solution, of course, is to use the card as a debit card whenever possible – at least whenever the possibility of causing an overdraft exists…
5/3 also has an OD “insurance” program, if you can qualify (credit line, basically)
BTW – the actual text of the settlement is available if you Google “Fifth Third Settlement”
Apparently Bank of America has settled its class action?
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2011/05/26/shame-on-you-bank-of-america.aspx
I wrote about the Bank of America settlement earlier this year. I added the link in the article above for reference.
GET THIS ONE…. KEY BANK
I HAD A PENDING TRANSACTION ON MY ACCOUNT- NOT YET POSTED, SHOWING A TEMPORARY NEGATIVE BALANCE. I RUN TO THE BANK TO MAKE A $CASH MONEY DEPOSIT TO MORE THAN COVER IT; I GET THERE EARLY AFTERNOON, THE BANK IS CLOSED. ITS NOT A BANK HOLIDAY, IM AT THE DRIVE THRU AND HAVE NO CLUE WHATS GOING ON, ALONG WITH A HANDFUL OF OTHER CUSTOMERS CIRCLING THE BANK TRYING TO FIGURE THIS OUT.
I FINALLY GET A HOLD OF A FRIEND WHO SAID THEY SAW KEY BANK PEOPLE OUTSIDE DOING STUFF. FINALLY TODAY, CALL THE BANK, THEY HAD A “HELP THE COMMUNITY DAY” OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, AND CLOSED THE BANK FOR THE DAY!
SO, MY CASH DEPOSIT WAS DEEMED NOT RECEIVED UNTIL THE NEXT DAY EVEN THOUGH I OPTED TO AT LEAST DEPOSIT IT THRU THE ATM. I CALL THEM, THEY SAY I SHOULD HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THE CLOSING! THAT THEY HAVE A SIGN ON THE DOOR! I DONT GO INTO THE BANK EVER.
THEN THEY SAY, EVEN IF IT DID POST THE DAY I PUT THE MONEY IN, THEY POST DEBITS BEFORE CREDITS SO THAT NO MATTER WHAT, THEY CAN CHARGE YOU OVERDRAFT FEES; WHICH ARE $39 DOLLARS EACH! YES, IM TALKIING ABOUT KEY BANK, KEY BANK. THEY ARE LIKE THE ONLY BANK WHO DOES ANYTHING THIS UNETHICAL. AND TO BOOT, I HAVE SELECTED THE OPTION TO NOT HAVE MY ACCOUNT PAY OUT ON ANY ITEMS FOR WHICH I DO NOT HAVE THE FUNDS. THIS WAY, I WOULD NOT HAVE THE FEES. WELL GUESS WHAT, THEY DID THIS ANYWAY! THERE IS SOME OTHER SMALL TYPE PART TO THIS TOO!
WHAT A RIP OFF! KEY BANK SUCKS!
How can this be legal?
It is horrible & should be ILLEGAL!
Has Anyone tried Woodforest National Bank that are located nationally in Walmarts? Ive had them for over a year and the way their system works is that the banking day ends when the bank closes at 6 or 7pm depending which day it is. I have an ACH deposit go through every Thursday night/Friday Morning and it will post to my acct and be available IMMEDIATELY. At my old Wachovia acct it would not post to my acct until MONDAY or TUESDAY. It is a direct deposit for christs sake. I have had very little problems with them, a big problem is that Walmart is usually always mobbed and it is inside walmart. Also, when you first open an acct with them, if you have a huge personal check come in, they will put it on hold for like 7 business days. It drove me nuts, but other than that, Woodforest is worth the little trouble. Another thing they do which is great is send you a daily email with not only an UP TO DATE and trust me..it isnt like Wachovia or Wells Fargo where the information in their “balance alert emails” is a day or two behind. But say in that email (whch is sent at about 5am) it says your in the negative from transactions that posted that previous night. You have until close that day to deposit enough money to cover the balance. Another awesome thing is that they are open on SUNDAYS for like 6 hours and to them, every single day except Christmas and thanksgiving and maybe a couple other holidays, is a BANKING DAY to them. Everything you deposit is available for immediate withdraw and posts to your acct the second you put it in. Hope people research Woodforest and let me know what you think!!! And no, the last place I would want to work is a freaking bank. To me it would be like working for Satan, so it is not like I am promoting the bank bc I work or worked there. Hope the rest of these banks ESPECIALLY Wachovia, get whats coming to them.
TD Bank (Commerce Bank – whatever) Shuffles accounts around when your account is down to it’s last dollars. For example. I had $130 in my account on Saturday. I got gas for $30.00, then went to the atm and took $60.00 cash out, went to the grocery store and used my debit card (as a credit) for $30.00 then rented a movie at red box for $1.00. My total in transactions was = $121.00, leaving me with $9.00. On Monday I went to the TELLER and deposited $10.00 cash just in case. My balance read, after the deposit,.83. Frantic, I went online and sure enough my pending gym membership of $49.00 was coming through. My account was then shuffled (most expensive item first, even though pending, came first – my gym membership). Then I was charged $105.00 in overdraft fees ( though it was not clearly stated on my online account as to what this applied to exactly). Upon visitng the bank I found out I was overdrafted for the cash, the grocery, and the movie rental (gas did not come out until Tuesday when acocunt was cleared again). Even though I had money in the account according to the ATM, online banking and the teller – by Monday, the pending $49.00 took precedence, as did the gas pending (only $1.00 really) but they took the whole amount of $30.00 against me. If your confussed so am I, and so was the customer service rep at the bank, and so was the young teller. Shuffling to TD Bank advantage. Shaddy, shaddy practice and it should not be legal! I am switching banks to a local one ( one of the few left). TD Bank is an awful establishment.
Just got done at the bank (BB&T) trying to figure out their practices in posting trnasaction after I recieved $140 overdrawn fee. I tturnes out the way they figure is to take your last daily balance subtract what ever is pending then start subtracting posted payment starting with the most expensive and on. So with this happening and them taking out “PENDING” transactions before they start doing other math my account which should have been $60 after a late night transaction deposit of $80 and debit tranaction of -$20. They have now assesed me $140 with another $70 coming out later….Not even the bank manager could fully explain to me their practice on this. HOWEVER, thirty minutes into our conversation she did state that starting next month (June 2011) banks are being regulated and required to post transactions in order of appearance not however the hell they want so that they can make the most profit
Hi everyone,
I know this has nothing to do with the subject, but I researching for infomation regarding a system used in banking whereby Cash & Cheque-Withdrawals and Deposits, telex transfers…whereby the Teller services are approved through a POS like machine by swiping your Debit Card and entering your PIN and in case you do not hold a Debit Card, a receipt can be printed for you to sign…does anyone have any idea about such a machine and what’s its techical name.
Thanks
I’m in Indianapolis, Indiana… and I’m having trouble locating an attorney with both the staff and the time to handle filing a suit similar to the ones previously mentioned against Regions Bank. I found one, but there’s a conflict of interest – their offices are in the Regions Bank Building downtown, so they’d be suing their landlord. Does anyone have a suggestion? The bar association’s referral service has been less than helpful (small one or two person firms) Thanks!
Vystar Credit Union (Jacksonville, FL, Gainesville, FL) is definitely one of those financial institutions that calculates debits and credits in such a way as to result in multiple overdrafts in one day. They apply your withdrawals (ACH withdrawls, checks, etc.) first, suck out the NSF fees, then lastly, they apply your deposits (including Direct Deposits). Vystar looking out for Vystar first, customer last. I am seriously thinking about switching financial institutions.
I’m wondering what anyone out there knows about SunTrust??? I have been with 5/3 Bank for about 7 years and I’ve had enough. Last week on Friday at 4:30pm I paid my Fuel Oil delivery person with a check for $600.00 At noon of the same day I had made a deposit of $550.00 which brought my bank balance to about $900.00. It never occured to me that I was in an overdraft situation. …but I was because the delivery man went right down to the branch and posted the check (I guess he really needed the money fast). That night I had several withdraws and because that check came out first and then the other withdraws then my deposit posted, I was overdrafted to the tune of $99.00 in fees even though I had a positive daily balance of $250.00. I’ve confirmed that this is not SunTrusts practice but is there anything else that should know about??? Oh, and they refunded me one fee. Thanks 5/3 Bank your awesome!!! 🙁
Go to 53.com; there’s a link near the bottom of the page pointing to the Class Action Settlement website. File the claim based on what you’ve posted. You should get it all back.
More on 5/3…
I had the same thing happen, almost. Deposit made at 9:13 AM, with internet transactions (ACH) about an hour later. The internet transactions generated an overdraft, even tough they did not post until three days later. A quick call / email to the branch manager fixed it 100%; I had made sure that the POS/ATM (instantly / chronologically processed) transactions were well within the pre-deposit balance.
I just want to know when exactly the “end of the business day” occurs. I bank at US Bank and have found that deposits made after 4:00 pm are supposedly credited “after the next business day”, but deposits made after 4:00 pm on Friday are not available until Tuesday at midnight (rather than at 4:01 on Monday). So, does “the business day” end at 4:00 pm or does it end at midnight (first tick) of the next day? Apparently there two different “ends of the business day”, one of which is used for deposits and another (eight hours later) which used for funds availability. That just seems wrong to me (and should probably be illegal as well).
I have been with Bank of America for over four years. Never had a problem, I can deposit cash or check into the ATM and it’s available same day ( if its cash) and you deposit it before 8pm. If I am depositing check same thing it’s avalable same day if it’s under 3,000.00 anything over 3k is one day business hold. Awesome bank been with them since the Military. Never got charged fees, I got one fee for check order and I spoke with representative and they refunded it back to me, no issues at all. If you are looking for a good bank with good customer service join up!
This is what Commerce Bank did to me. They allowed a transaction to go through although I did not have the funds in the account when I made the purchase( I accidentally grabbed the wrong card). When I realized my mistake and told the cashier at Jiffy Lube to not use the card, she said it went through, I thought it was strange. She had put it through as a credit. Earlier in the day, when I had enough funds, I made a purchase at Dunkin Donuts also as a credit. When the deposits came through for the day, they of course bounced the transaction at Jiffy lube and the purchase at DD, also purchases at DD from days before! when I actually had more than enough funds in the account at the time I made the purchases. Consequently charging me a whopping $175. I went straight to the bank to argue, then they handed a waiver to sign to say that I won’t allow then to put the transaction through when I don’t have enough funds in the account. Why wasn’t I told this before? They credited me most of it on the spot, but then took it back the next day! This should be illegal. The most convenient bank? Convenient crooks!
So does anyone know of banks that post credits first then debits. I was told First market bank does.
so in a scenario where you see a pending debit, you can run tothe bank, make a deposit by 1 or 2 and it will protet you and be credited and cover the pending debit
Easy. My boyfriend has no online account access set up. So, this means that I can’t micromanage his funds as I do mine. He has my account number to make deposits. We have seperate accounts and neither of us have mentioned the others name so there is no possible access to the other’s money. Deposits never hurt.
Reading this thread reminded me of another practice I have seen. I have had pendng authorizations that in total would have over drawn my bank account by $1. I deposited a couple of dollars to cover this before they cleared. They processed the first transaction(which happened to be a transfer between accounts) before the deposit, stated that my available balence would not cover it(it still showed -$1) and charged me overdraft fees on every transaction made that day. The kicker was that the day before was the end of the window for my signup bonus to be credited. The told me that the status of one of my accounts had changed at some point in time after I had allready recived conformation e-mails stating that I had been approved and the bonus would be paid with a specific window that if would be paid in.
So in effect they tried to disqualify me for a bonus payment that I allready recived recived corrispondance stating the qualifications, dates met, and final conformation of approvial after I called them on it. While at the same time they charged me overdraft fees for a transfer between accounts that I made while my available balance was more than enough to cover it. That brought my overall balance below zero AFTER the fee was assesed
(had they not charged the fee all transactions would have cleared because the deposit showed before the last transaction in the statement) I asked them to freeze all activity, or close the account untill it was cleared up and they refused, thus charging daily overdrawn account fees..
It took a week of e-mail corrispondance for them to finally tell me that it had to be handled by my home branch’s manager. Now I can honestly say I love her to death, she did return my balance to what it would have been. But I also know that if they hadn’t I had proof that my girlfriend had completed transactions in an account that they used to try to disqualify me for the bonus( they said that because she was only on one, not both accounts it changed something). I belive the only reason they stopped arguing with me about it was because I stated verry clearly that I could probibly screw them with what they said in the corrispondance, printouts made before and after everything posted, and recipts showing that the tellers had allowed my girlfriend access to an account that they clearly stated in corrispondance she did not have access to. Whe I feel better now that I got that out.
I have a tiny little credit union doing the same thing now out of Lancaster, SC. Doesn’t matter if it’s the same day, they tell you afterwards,they “Process” transactions as they come in, no matter that they “advertise” same-day banking..If you protest, then they return the money, begrudgedly telling you “Now we’ll do it THIS time”..
One Friday however back in the Winter, I went to make a deposit to cover my insurance payment due the following Monday..The bank branch was LOCKED at 5:30 instead of 6:00pm. I went to one door, then thought, okay, the drive-thru was open. ..NO, the curtains were down…I went back to the other door, and finally someone came..”Oh we’re closed.”..”Yea, it’s not 6pm, it’s 5:31, What’s up?”. I demanded….”OH we gotta’ go home, the roads are FREEZING”…I look out at their own time, thermometer clock and say “It SEZ, 43 DEGREES!”…
I put my deposit in the night box, made a camera phone pix of me doing it with a time date stamp of 5:40pm. AND drove off in a huff to my other account, a non-joint account at Wal-Mart. (they stay open until 7pm, and notify you immeadiately online of all pending transactions.)..Their response was to offer me a “finder fee” to pass out their brochures with my name as a reference on it to ALL Founders Federal Credit Union customers…
MONDAY, I go in to the branch, ready to make the trip over to the main branch in Lancaster, SC to raise 3-shades of HELL expecting an overdraft fee and my insurance payment returned when I’m greated at the door..”MR XXX”. we’ve already taken care of it for you. Here’s your deposit slip. We’ve had to do ALL the transactions like this today”..
This past Saturday, I make a cash deposit in their night box as my usual tranascation….Founders Federal Credit Union of SC shows a debit run first, then an overdraft fee, then my deposit…They all came within a minute of each other. The branch manager made the CONCIOUS effort to allow this..
SO, I”m taking a shower, getting in the car..AND DRIVING the 50 miles to Lancaster, SC to present a message to their board members that I might only be one person now,BUT that I have access to the names and address’s as a MEMBER of all other MEMBERS’s and are going to exercise the right to call a meeting to discuss “changes” to the credit union’s policy seeing as “we” own it. I already got an acquaintance at WBT in Charlotte who 1)Hates bank policy as much as anyone 2)Sees a major David vs a Tiny Goliath that could send some serious shockwaves atleast thru the Mom and Pop banks who want to play the same game as the BB&T’s and the BOA’s..
Having worked for banks over 13 years in their processing/networking departments, I know EXACTLY the “type” of scheming, coniving, CROOKS that run these places..Sniveling, lazy underachievers falling all over one another to find a way to get more of YOUR money. Their biggest fear?. Organizing a good ole’ RUN on the BANK!. It was recently done to a bank in the UK and laws were changed calling bank fees “illegal usury” and customers are now able to sue for TREBLE damages in the common court by showing how their financial situation were damaged.
What the UK told banks is 1)It’s the CUSTOMER’s MONEY not YOUR money to begin with…2)They the CUSTOMER give you the bank the PRIVELEDGE of watching their money in exchange for you being able to lend it out therefore making a fair return from those loans 3)Without THE CUSTOMER’s MONEY, you wouldn’t have ANYTHING at all!.
OR as a friend of mine once told me (who was in the banking biz himself for one of the few semi-honest instituitions)..
“Without the customer’s money, the bank doesn’t even own the carpet on the floor or the pictures on the wall”….Another friend told me “Banks make paper lie”.Remember this when you deal with any bank. Tell THEM how it’s going to be with YOUR, not THEIR money, NOT the other way around!
I agree with you wholeheartedly!
Info above on Chase is not complete. Payments made with their on-line Bill Pay system are processed before deposits.
Another “feature” they have is overdraft protection is first taken as a cash advance from any linked Chase credit card before it’s taken from a linked savings account. (Was told I couldn’t unlink my Chase credit card from my account.)
@Julie: Agree! Chase is terrible. You’re supposed to put money in a bank (rather than mattress) to keep it safe. I have to watch Chase closely to keep them from stealing. I never had problems like this with WaMu. Since Chase took them over I’ve had to call and argue 5 or 6 times about service charges. The last one was a $45 service charge for late payment on my Chase Credit Card. I paid it from my Chase Checking account using Chase Bill Pay. I authorized the payment a week before it was due, funds came out on the date they chose (same day), but were held for a day (by Chase) before being delivered (to Chase). I had to argue with 3 people for over an hour to get the $45 refunded. I kept being told “sorry, no one here can reverse the $45 fee because we didn’t receive your payment on time.” (Switching to City National when I can close the Chase account.)
Chase is terrible. Anyone ever heard of holding a payroll direct deposit? My payroll deposit has been on time for 2 years. Now, all of a sudden, they tell me over the phone it’s scheduled to be posted 4 days later. My colleagues have received their deposits, on time! Even those who bank with Chase. This is highway robbery! Because it’s the holidays, they are trying to force me to overdraft my account! Can I collect interest on the money they are holding? Who do I complain to?
Wachovia is the worst for this…I have called and verified a deposit has been received at the bank and then called to pay a bill right afterwards and they processed the bill and then applied the deposit and charged me an over draft of $35. Even though their automated services said the available funds were there….they are totally out to rip you off. I am closing my account with them on the first of this month for that reason. They said the deposit had been received but not fully processed so they charged me the fee even though the automated system flected the avialable balance as there. (what???)
This is spot on information. Currently, there is a class action suit against a long list of banks around the country that are using software that deliberately posts debits ahead of credits to create as many overdrafts as possible. This is outright theft, folks, and is illegal as hell. But, it’s not at all surprising once you realize that the entire banking industry is a fraud and criminal enterprise, in the first place. Read books like G. Edward Griffin’s “The Creature from Jeykll Island” to learn more about what the international banking industry has been doing for over a century.
I bank with Compass and they have explained to me that they subtract all the debits first. Then they tack on any OD fees if able to, after that they credit you’re account with whatever deposits you have. I was not aware of this untill about 6 mo after i had the account. The bank rep that set up my account never mentioned this practice to me. I would like a honest bank but they seem to be in short supply. Does any one know of a good one in DFW TX?
This is the policy at PNC. I recently made a $2000.00 deposit, and it posted as cleared when I checked my balance online, so I scheduled some payments. Several days later, I got a letter saying that the deposit would take longer to clear, so I was charged an overdraft fee on each payment I had scheduled. When I asked the bank about it, they essentially said that even though the funds had posted online, I should have known that the check had not cleared, because it hadn’t been 48 hours yet. In the past, checks that hadn’t cleared were posted under “pending transactions” until the funds became fully available. The bank told me they stopped doing this, now they post the full amount, even if they haven’t cleared it yet, then charge you an overdraft fee if you try to draw on it. This is obvioucly a way for them to collect higher fees.
and another thing..“debit preauthorization”..is a “memo post”..which the bank uses to make investments..and hold your deposits..they “memo post” ..bank uses money until they decide to put it on your acct…..during this time your money can’t be accessed..but they are using it..and if you try THIRTY FIVE DOLLLARS
“debit preauthorization” !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!another fancy word for your money is gone and we are using it and making money off it, but, but ,but you better not screw up or we will charge you an overdraft fee because we want to leave it out there like a Buzzard!!!…THIRTY FIVE DOLLAR
I was buying 2 game cards from my country with my debit card. Those card have been cancel but PNC put my $12.85 in “Pending Withdrawals” for 3 days and I haven’t seen any side they give my money back. What should I do? I send PNC an e-mail to day but I think it won’t be answer or if they answer, they could say anythink they want. I think I need to withdrawal almost all of my money and transfer them to another bank that have better service.
ducanh: That’s a debit preauthorization that you see in your account, and the bank might keep them there for five days or more, but usually less. They’ll just disappear if the debit was canceled by the place you bought the game cards. If the purchase wasn’t canceled, the preauth will become a debit and if you want your money, you’ll have to get the game card seller to credit your refund.
I told you!!!!..all you have to do is keep printing this “Garbage” 2-3 times a day and keep all your records and we can build the biggest “Class Action Suit” this country has EVER!! seen…I’m talking about the “Blatantly Illegal” whole sale “Ripp-Off” of all times being done with “Collusion” between supposedly competing Banks!…(Trillions of Dollars) ..With something this “Wide Spread” you can’t tell me the “Bank Examiners” don’t know about it!!!..so that brings the ‘Suit” to the “Federal” level…That will get good Att’s involved!!!..but everyone has to “Print-Out” the pages to “Prove It”!!!..We need a Bumper Sticker or “T” shirts or something!!!…TV coverage would help…It will get “Rolling” on it’s own if just a few people start to “Push” and “Record” everything!..Just another “Tidbit” to ponder….Your “Deposit” of your paycheck gets a “Memo Post” as soon as the teller stamps it…That money is instantly available to the Bank for it’s own use..and they both report it and invest it instantly!!!…without paying you dividends for your “Loan” to them..(while you wait for it to clear)…Then if there is a problem..they charge you again for some one writing you a “Bad Check”…They gain and you lose..your responsible for any fee’s incurred and the only way you can collect those fee’s is to sue in Small Claims Court”…This wouldn’t bother me except for them getting to make money off me without paying “Interest”..and again “Shuffling” the Debits and Credits to cause more “Predatory Banking”…The Suit referred to (in previous post).. against BOA was Settled out of court so there was no conviction…There have been some very “serious” Suits about similar and “Overlapping” topics that have all gone in the customers favor and established some pretty “Harsh” penalties for these “Practices”…but no one has jumped up and done anything in the last 10-15 years of any consequence…a lot has changed (computers) and has allowed for this Larcenous behavior on the part of the “Fed. Banks”..Now we have to Police the Government ourselves as the Tax Paid employees of the US (That you and me and our Tax Dollars pay for)..Don’t even make an “Attempt” to enforce or follow existing Laws!!!..This could be a “Juicy Suit” …Like I said ..”Where’s that hungry Lawyer???”…I know that my cut will be some stupid little pittance but what I’ll save in Bank fee’s, Time, Hassle, and Money will be just fine!!..This Bank Stuff is killing me!!!..every week!!!…I’m tired of making them give me my own money back!!!…$2,600.00 this year!!!…plus the phone calls, printer paper, time, BS, Gas, Time off work, ETC.I got a hold of the Fed. in charge of all the Bank Examiners..(nice guy)..He’s lost in an obscure office in Wash. and personally responded to me by phone at 6:30 at night!!!..from his car!! on the way home!!..has a secretary and that’s it!!…One guy!!..He’s so busy with all the “Bush Money” being given out to all the “Party Animals” that are claiming their share..that watching Banks is very low on his “Plate”!!!..It’s in our “Laps” whither we want it or not!!..On a personal level all you can do is what I suggested and they HAVE to give you your money back…(don’t jump intermediately..when you see it..wait for a week or so to get all the “Print-out’s” in order and things calm down on your account..Early complaints can cause you even more trouble as they realize you are watching..(Things get real strange then..2+2=10..every time..)..Anybody make “T” Shirts???…”Bust the Banks” or something…
Mike-You are so right and explained it perfectly!!! I am so mad!! This very thing happened to me this week, and now the extra days I worked last week are eaten up in fees thanks to PNC Bank’s predatory practice. I did check my balance online last week, as I do each day at least 1-3 times per day. Some things showed that they were cleared, then magically, voila!!! they rearranged the transactions. Transactions that were done over the weekend weren’t sent through until Wednesday, while others were sent through Tuesday that were done Monday. All electronic transactions. Furthermore, I deposited a check on Wed. as we don’t have direct deposit at our employer, and they bounced another transaction even though my account had funds because according to the bank, “The funds weren’t truely available” until the next day. I couldn’t deposit the funds “as cash” like usual, because, of course I was overdrawn. Kinda like a “catch 22” With whom do we speak or write to, state legislators or congressmen to get this practice changed?? I feel that the transactions should come out in chronological order.
I’m not siding with or against posters on this site. I just want to correct some misconceptions. Electronic debits are posted in the order that you spent them. Banks don’t have Malware programs that rearrange whole weeks worth of transactions. If you use your debit card over the weekend at Starbucks and then slide it at Safeway on Monday, the weekend debit won’t necessarily post before the Safeway debit. At Safeway, they’re point-of-sale machine allows you to process the debit as ATM allowing you to enter a PIN. That transaction posts that day whereas using your same debit card at Starbucks, it’s run like a credit card and there’s a delay in the posting depending on how long Starbucks sits on the transactions before they batch out their credit transactions and send it to the bank. So the point is, the order that you spend isn’t the order that it’ll post. It’s not magically getting rearanged, it’s just retailer sitting on their batches.
That’s only a partial explanation. On the day the bank receives the transaction from the retailer, they are often free to post the transactions *received the same day* in the order they prefer.
Not at Regions. I’ve seen the “magic re-ordering” as well as the typical “highest first” re-sequencing that BofA just got gigged for doing. I’ve complained about it to Regions, and keep getting the “that’s standard industry practice” boilerplate reply. The one difference I can see between the BofA complaint and what Regions does is that Regions does make it clear that you can opt-out of overdraft coverage, or apply for “enhanced” overdraft coverage (loans) – and make it simple enough to do on their website. Given this ruling in the BofA case, I wonder if other banks that don’t adhere to strict chronological order, including Regions, will correct their policies. The one good thing I’ve seen at Regions is that ACH deposits (Direct Deposits) are counted in the “available balance”, even though they aren’t in the “ledger balance” until the next business day; “Cash” deposits are immediately available, as far as I know, even if they’re after the “close of business” cutoff time. But woe unto the Regions customer who has $500 in the account on Friday, and does transactions for $450 over the weekend, and a $75 transaction on Monday! EVERYTHING WILL BOUNCE and incur the $35 overdraft fee each.
Spend $50 at Safeway, and later go to Kroger’s and get $75 worth of groceries (Kroger’s means better meat!). The $75 will post BEFORE the $50. And if you only had $60, then BOTH transactions will generate overdraft fees. At least unless your bank happens to be one of the ones named as defendant in suits brought in Federal court to halt this practice – so far, only BofA and effective 3/25/11, Fifth Third.
The better question is why did you spend $125 when you only had $60.
That is a valid question. I often wonder how fee can appear on an account that had money in it in the first place. It doesn’t work like that. If you are spending more than you have then of course there are going to be fees.
the magic word here is. if.
There has been a Class Action against Bank of America for this.
If you had a Bank of America account between 12/6/2000 and 12/31/2007 and had a check with overdraft fees, you are entitled to a $78 refund.
http://clossonsettlement.com/PDFs/ClaimForm.pdf
That’s exactly what I’m talking about!!!!..There is a “Mal-Ware” program that “most” Banks are using that searches for and “Tags” accounts that are vulnerable!!!..Most all the “Lowly Bank Mgr’s” are not aware of it and don’t understand what’s happening. They are give the “Pitch” to sell and their job depends on it!!!…As a Country we have to rise up and “Protest” and “SUE”…That’s the only way this will stop and keep it from getting worse!!!..I just had $600.00 in charges and fee’s reversed because I raised heck!..and I was right!!!..This is “SOP” for Banks now and will get worse!!..Rise up and Fight!!..We work to hard for our money to have it stolen by the people who charge us to watch it!!!..Read my previous posts and really try what I suggest…You will see what I am talking about!…It’s “Mal-Ware” being used against us by the same institutions that our Government is supposed to be supervising!!!…Where the Heck are the Lawyers when you need them???…Remember these days 2+2 +=10
I bank with Southwest Airlines Credit Union. They are awesome. I don’t work for SWACU but because my immediate family member does, I am able to bank with them. When I have a check direct deposited, they always post it at Midnight sharp the day it is expected…if that day falls on a weekend, they post it Friday night at midnight and the funds are immediately available. They also post deposits immediately and then debits follow in the order in which they were received. Southwest Airlines Credit Union is the best bank I have ever dealt with. I would highly recommend them.
I have a friend that was recently affected by the mortgage melt down. Her mortgage is with Wells Fargo and she banks with BOA. Both are crooks and will steal you blind. I have recently been helping my friend with her budget due to mortgage issues and the fact that I handle the finances for the company that I work for. I found and have documentation to support both practices. My friend was behind on her mortgage, what I found was: Wells Fargo repeatedly posted her mortgage payments not in accordance to the “Terms” stiplated in her mortgage agreement. They were outright violating that agreement. As a result, they showed her 3 months past due and they began foreclosure proceedings. She tried to get a modification to her mortgage but after 3 months nothing happened and her home was scheduled to be sold in an auction in September. We contacted numerous attorneys which required outrageous retainers and she essentially could not afford. Wells Fargo continuously posted multiple mortgage payments any way they wanted even though the mortgage terms specifically specify how these funds are to be applied, Well Fargo disregarded those TERMS stipulated in the mortgage documents. It was not until we filed a complaint with the Comptroller of the Currency which oversees banks with NA in their name that anything started to happen. Within one week of her home being sold, Wells Fargo approved her for a loan modification. The only problem, in order to save her home, she had to agree to accept all the extra fees that Wells Fargo had added from legal fees to you name it. She was essentially forced to accept these terms.
I have filed numerous complaints with various officials, agencies, wrote Senators, Congressmen in our area, etc.
Since all of this happened, I have been helping my friend manage her money. She banks with BOA. I print out her banking activity 2-3 times a day. The practice that Bank of America participates in is similar to those discussed on this website. Just to give you an example, my friend stopped by on Wednesday, her roommate just paid her the rent money and she had CASH. She asked if I would be able to stop by her bank to make the deposit because she is working 7/10’s. On 1/8/09, I made her CASH deposit to her account. The receipt shows DEPOSIT 1/8/09 however, BOA shows 3-4 different scenario’s depending on what time of day you check….I printed all of this. The CASH deposit receipt shows 1/8/09 as the date of deposit, online they show “deposit made after cut off time” and pending. On 1/9/09, the deposit was still “pending”. I checked online 3-4 times and printed everything out on 1/09/09, the CASH deposit did not show up and was not posted to her account until sometime after 5:30am the morning of 1/10/09.
I think the American public should protest these practices to our elected officals. If we don’t, nothing will change and who is looking out for us and protects the consumer these days? If you don’t complain then nothing will ever change.
In regards to that BofA cash deposit, it appears from the context of that post that you made a cash deposit to your friend’s account after the cutoff time for BofA. Cutoff time means the bank is effectively closed but is still staying open for convenience of customers. Now, although that cash deposit is marked as pending for next day, that is really irrelevant as cash deposits are always available immediately regardless if it’s showing as pending or not. You’ll see proof of this in what’s reflected as your “available balance”. I don’t see anything illegal or shady in that scenario you presented.
On two separate occasions our bank has called us and said that our checking account balance has gone negative. They said if we made a deposit that day they wouldn’t charge a fee. The amounts were small and an oversight on our part. We don’t maintain much on deposit with the bank so presumably they treat other customers similarly.
That’s not an option for me..I’m speaking directly to “Predatory” accounting procedures that would seem to me to be against the Federal Banking Laws!!..With the “On-line Banking” access that we all have now …you can monitor the “Dates” that Debits and credits are made and clear…..I have noticed that not only will Banks “Hold” the Debits at certain times of the month (hoping for a regular monthly payment debit) but will actually “Re-calculate” the day the debit clears up to a week or more after the transaction is complete…This allows for “Creative Bookkeeping” ..IE: $200.00 balance..in the next 3 days, 5 debits totaling $195.00 “Clear” the account..6 days later a $300.00 debit clears instantly (by some miracle) on the same day a $400.00 Deposit is made (either direct or ACH..with the ACH clearing at 12:00 that evening as ACH transactions do)..The Bank will re-calculate the previously completed transactions and pay the $400.00 debit first!!!..then bounce all the other debits (already cleared and change the clear date) and charge banking fee’s accordingly.and then figure the Deposit effectively “Ripping You Off”!!!…I’ve gone round and round with my bank about this…Without a 3-4 times daily printout of your transactions off your on-line banking site (showing what cleared when) ..the consumer has NO leg to stand on as the bank computer has been changed..(seems to be some kind of “Hunting” Software the Bank uses).Even with your printouts your looking at several hours of fighting with the Bank Mgr. who has a list of “Pat” excuses that rival a side show pitchman!..This doesn’t even take into account the aforementioned Deposit (ACH) that should be an immediate credit off a 2-3 day ACH “Memo Post”..and figured before the $400.00 Debit!…Banks are now claiming that ACH deposits are figured at 12:00 that banking day..while any debit made that day is figured first…This after they have just “Held” Debits for several days just to “Create” this situation…There is no way to Police this until someone gets a really good attorney to really take a look at this practice and do a “Class Action” Lawsuit representing consumers against the Banks and force the Federal Reserve to stop them from this illegal conduct!!..This is a Trillion dollar a year plus Rip-Off that no one has done anything about!!!
I challenge the members of this board and any Att’s out there to start a Web-Site to bring all these potential clients together and everyone to monitor and get printouts of their transactions several times a day to create the body of evidence needed to bring these criminals to there knees!!! The first thing to look at is a local store that you use often…Note that on certain times of the month the normal “Hold” on your money from a Debit Card purchase will clear that day…then later (when the power, rent, mortgage,etc.) when the bills come in there is a 3-5 day Hold on the transaction from the same store..allowing the Bank to figure the big debit first and creating yet another way of causing a multiple “Overdraft” on your account…This is all kind of tricky to grasp until you get good at reading your personal On-line account printouts..and watch the dates change on debits!!!…This is only possible with the use of “Hunting” seek and destroy software..very similar to a “Bot” virus..or “Phishing” program..It is the way of nature for the Banks to apply the technology that years of accomplished On-line Rip-off Artists have developed and used to steal from consumers..and once the existence of this “Mal-ware” has been documented and revealed to the public, there will be a flood of these lawsuits!!!…Watch Your Money!!.. Because The Banks Are!!!
I’m assuming your talking about Regions again? I always watch my bank accounts to see when credits, holds, pending, and other transactions are taking place. I’m watching Regions right now to see how a night check deposit is accounted for. Slow..slow…slow. I don’t like the system so far. I have Wachovia, too. Deposits go through fast at Wachovia.
I went for two years without a band account. Purchasing money orders from the grocery store was less than the banking fees. While maybe not the most desirable, it did save me money.
For those of us who live paycheck to paycheck. Having a cushion in the bank account is not an option. We have our bank account at BB&T (Branch Banking and Trust Co.) Even if our bank account has a positive balance, BB&T posts all debits first. They post our paychecks last- overdrawing our account, every week! (Our employer does not offer direct deposit.) We can not keep ahead of the bank overdraft charges! We were deeply affected by the mortgage meltdown and are now kicked by the bank when down. We have pleaded with them to forgive some of the service charges, but to no avail. I would love to find a bank that would post credits first.
I’ve got one for you that “Top’s” all of this..ACH Deposits..Regions Bank …Even with the questionable practice of what “99 percent of banks do”..in regards to the ATM and deposit credits..Regions Holds ACH deposits for 3-4 days before posting them!!!..I have gone round-n-round about it with them (which they deny!)..and caught them last night..Deposit showed up before 12:00 PM as “pending” with a projected balance..should have processed at 12:01AM and be available..Today it’s NOT EVEN THERE!..and they deny ever having it….I can’t believe my on-line checking report is more accurate then their banking computers..This is happening all over..They use Billions of dollars “Interest Free” every day and there isn’t one agency that will take responsibility to look into it..America is getting Ripped Off again on a unfathomable level!!..I suspect it is collusion between the Fed’s who handle ACH Transfers and the Banks and they sure don’t want ANYONE asking about it..
I haven’t seen that; although again, they do process high-to-low, which is in contravention of recent court cases – Bank of America, and now Fifth Third… and other suits are pending against Chase, and several others. So, we’ll see. Ideally, we should be contacting our Senators and Representatives in DC and getting this procedure made unlawful.
BINGO! You ARE correct and I have “caught” them doing exactly that…I’ve been with Regions (and Union Planters before that) going on 20 years and after that (and the rest of their processing tricks), I’m out! My business will be going to a reputable Credit Union.
Don’t open an account with Colonial Bank in Alabama, they’ll really stick it to you with as many debits as possible before posting a deposit that actually came in before them on the same day!
If I could do without a bank I would, but they have monopolized stealing money from those who can afford it least!!
You are absolutely correct I made the mistake of opening an account with them in Alabama and now that BB&T has taken over its a nightmare.
YES!! Me too! I’m thinking class action lawsuit here with Colonial Bank/BB&T. Contact me on my website if interested!!
I’ve had the same problems with BB&T. It seems it should be illegal to manipulate the transactions so that they can ‘justify’ charging you overdrafts. I just paid $140 in overdraft fees because they posted my deposit AFTER my debits and charged the largest debit to my account first even though it was the last transaction I had. I am totally in on a class action lawsuit. Please keep me informed if you decide to move forward.
I had the same problem with Colonial/BBT. I now owe them money for a stupid overdraft that never should have happened!
I feel sorry for anyone who banks at BBamp;T. They steal my money every payday. I live from paycheck to paycheck. I get paid twice a month and by the end of the 2nd week I’m down to pennies. But many times I make a cash deposit the day before a debit is suppose to post and they take out the money before they post the deposit. Just like today. I have $35 in the bank. An ACH withdraw is suppose to come out tomorrow or the next day for $33 plus I have a $20 monthly bank fee. So I ran to the bank at 3 p.m. and put another $25 in the bank. Now tomorrow will come and I’m sure with my luck the $33 charge will come through plus the banks $20 checking fee. My available balance at this time shows $60 so there should be enough to cover it. But I’m sure if both debits come in tomorrow they will charge me a $35 overdraft fee.
Additionally, I had a very large check drawn on the US Treasury that I deposited through ATM. WaMu held the funds for several days “to make sure the check was good”!!!!
Umm, please to let me know if the Treasury is not good for a 6 digit check, mkay?
I have had a bit of a different experience with WaMu. I have a Treasury direct deposit that hits on the first day of the month, or the previous day if the first is a weekend or holiday.
I have documented proof that they process my withdrawals BEFORE the direct deposit.
The good side? They only charge one overdraft fee per day!
Also, wouldn’t it be GREAT if the banks would re-set your overdraft fee after say, 5 years without an overdraft? THAT would be customer rewards!
That’s a good idea, but it would be better if the reset it every 12 months from your last overdraft fee. Down to $5 then go up in increments of $5 and top of at $35.
I was impressed with Presidential Bank’s handling of this.
Their interest-bearing checking account has a minimum balance of $1000. If you fall below that amount in a given month, you are assessed a $5 fee.
I checked my balance online one day when I knew I was cutting it close to the $1000 balance, and noticed that due to the order of transactions my balance had fallen slightly below $1000 before a deposit brought it back above.
I called Presidential, explained that because my end of the day balance would be above $1000 I didn’t want to be charged the fee, and they told me they would not charge me the fee.
Of course, it was only a $5 fee in my case, but I’d guess a similar phone call might produce the same result for a customer concerned about an overdraft rather than a balance limit.
The whole problem boils down to this: when banks started extending their hours, they didn’t extend their processing and cutoff times.
Customers ASSUME that because they’re making a deposit on a calendar day that it’s effective that day. If they would actually read their disclosures or ask the teller or call up like you did, there wouldn’t be any problems.
From now on, tell yourself that banks still close at 3pm. If you need it there today, you need it there by 3.
@Tessa
I would actually like to challenge you on the credit before debit with Wells Fargo. I have banked with Wells Fargo for about 10 years now. When I switched auto insurance companies, the amount is auto drawn from my account on the 15th which is the same for my paycheck. Well for a while the amount of my auto insurance was more than i had available in my checking account and it would overdraft from my savings account. This really annoyed me because if i looked online it would be in this order:
Over Draft fee -$xx.xx
Over Draft from Savings: +$xxx.xx
Paycheck : +$xxxx.xx
Auto Insurance : -$xxx.xx
So, all of these transactions would show up on the 15th and clearly it was processing the debit before the credit. I had to call customer service and they refunded the fee each time this happened, but I had to move the money back to my savings account.
I also have multiple accounts at Chase and I can say that even if your account is showing negative, you can run to the ATM and deposit enough cash to cover the overage and you will be okay. These accounts are used for anything special, just to take advantage of account bonuses.
Yes, that’s true about Chase. You can rush to the bank ATM with cash if you see you have an overdraw that day and the cash is credited immediately. whew!
Chase was way ahead of Wells Fargo getting upgraded ATM’S that count your cash deposits, no envelope necessary any more and waiting for the next night (business day) to have your deposit credited. And Wells Fargo let’s you spend it immediately also.
Both banks post other Deposits/Credits at Midnight BEFORE Debits, which are iimmediately deducted right afterwards.
However, If you check your bank account online at midnight you won’t see this happen instantly because they have to upload their website for us to see our account info.
I was told this info from a Chase bank teller. Hope it helps someone.
James, your 100% right. (Sticking tounge out at wells Fargo)
I use to be a supervisor for Wells Fargo Bank and I think who ever you talked to didn’t know what they were talking about.
Here is how it really works at Wells Fargo:
There are two types of transactions, teller and ATM. If you make a cash deposit with a teller, the cash will be credited into your account as soon as the teller hands you the receipt. If you make a check deposit with a teller an immediate $100 dollars is credited to your account and the rest of the check will be credited the next business day. If you make a cash or check deposit with the ATM an immediate $100 dollars is credited to your account and the rest will be credited the next business day. The difference is because the teller can tell the system that it is cash deposit where the ATM can’t make that distinction and everything gets processed like a check deposit.
So, if you make a cash deposit with a teller it is in the account and you can walk right out the door and pull it out of the ATM with out incurring any type of fee.
Secondly, Wells Fargo takes any credits before debits. So if you make a check deposit and on the same day make a debit card purchase Wells Fargo will credit your account the deposit before they debit out for the purchase.
The only snag is that the end of a banking business day is 4:00pm. This means for a check deposit to be in your account in the morning it must be in the ATM or at the tell by 4pm. I’ve seen SO many situations where a customer will make a 5:00pm deposit and assume because the made it in before the bank closed the money will be in the account by the morning, it won’t!
So, if you make a check deposit after 4pm and then go pull it right out, you will get charged the overdraft fee because you made the deposit after the business day is over.
All the differences and time cut off do make it really hard on people and can be confusing at first so I agree with other posters that it’s a good idea to always have some kind of buffer just in case you miss a cut off or the bank places an extended hold on your check. I do hope that this cleared up any skepticism with Wells Fargo because while I worked there I always saw that the bank tried hard to be fair and not hit good customers with outrageous policy or fees!
“So, if you make a check deposit after 4pm and then go pull it right out, you will get charged the overdraft fee because you made the deposit after the business day is over.”
OK, but if what you said is true here, then the ATM withdrawl would also be after 4pm and considered a transaction for the next business day, right? So, there really shouldn’t be a fee. I suck at handling my money, but having wells fargo take more than I put in it seems like, I don’t know if I can afford to bank with them…
“Tessa” you may have worked there but you are not correct about the order. My direct deposit was posted at 2 am Thursday every week. If they see something coming through that morning? They take that money out first THEN do my deposit AND u can tell because somehow my direct deposit is postponed till 4 or 5 am lol. Oopsy just so they have enough time to process any checks or credit/debits going through, imagine that. Also if I send cash through the ATM at any hour it goes through INSTANTLY. If I do it by teller? Next day if it’s after 4! Not sure what state you worked in but it sure wasn’t in Florida. Just sayin :/
Do Credit Unions do the same as banks? I haven’t really paid attention. I have noticed that even though I am paid on a Friday my credit union posts the money on Thursday evening and it is available to me.
I currently bank at a credit union and this is how they process things:
-First ACH deposits and withdrawals received on Monday are posted overnight for Tuesday morning credit.
-Then throughout the day debit card transactions are posted in real time order throughout the day, meaning that if I select the debit option and use my pin# at 8:15 am for coffee, 12:30 pm for lunch, 5:30 pm for gas and 8:00 pm for groceries, they post in that order. This includes ATM withdrawals.
-Deposits made in the branch are posted at the time the deposit is made with certain exceptions. They do have the option to post local checks within 2 days and non-local checks within 5 days.
-Debit card charges using the credit option where you sign the receipt are temporarily posted as pending immediately, but the amount may change. Such as purchases at a gas pump temporarily post for $1 and restaurant charges post with an assumed 20% tip on the amount charged. The corrected amount posts, along with all other credit type transactions post permanently when the merchant and their credit card processor posts the final amounts. Usually this occurs within a day or two, but this is controlled by the merchant’s processor, not the credit union.
-Finally checks that my bank received on Tuesday are posted to my account on Tuesday evening around 7 pm. I am not sure if they post high to low or low to high, but all checks post at the same time with a credit date of Tuesday.
Not at MY credit union – One Nevada Credit Union, in both Las Vegas and Reno will post withdrawals BEFORE credits even IF the credit came in at 5am…
Just had it happen, and if it happens to overdraw your account by even one penny, you are charged $35.
Been in banking for over 38 years, and in THIS state and in THESE times, it’s just another way to bend their customer over…
Of course they do this. The problem is that 99% of them do it. Banks, like everyone else, exist to make money. The only difference is that most companies make money legitimately while banks steal it from you with policies and behavior beyond your control.
The best way to combat this would be to leave these banks. However, this will never happen because the majority of society is too blind and ignorant to make a difference. One intelligent person leaves and five more sheep join.
I’ve given up on this issue. The only thing I’ve found worth my while on this issue is to make sure I never get close to overdrafting the account and make sure I behave myself, lest they take more of my money. Basically, I work around their policies so they never notice me. If they don’t notice me, they can’t take anything from me.
Well, sometimes one man CAN make a difference – Recently, both Bank of America and Fifth Third have entered consent decrees and will be offering refunds to their customers. I recently inquired about how Fifth Third processes transactions – and I got this, in part:
[B]eginning 3/25/11, we will process items in the following order:
First: All deposits (including funds available from pending deposits) made prior to the end-of-day cutoff.
Next: All pending and posted date/time stamped debits will be deducted from the customer’s balance. Date/Time stamp debits include all:
? Debit card transactions (both PIN and POS)
? ATM withdrawals
? Transfer from the account initiated via Internet banking or an ACE transfer
Finally: All other batch debits will process next in highest to lowest dollar order. These are transactions the customer initiated that are processed once per business day such as:
? Checks
? ACH debits
? Bill Payments
? Account Fees
There’s a notice on the Fifth Third website ( 53.com ) about their class action.
Now, if we could just get the Feds to make that a rule, instead of individual bank policy…
Tom could you forward that email to me ? Yesterday Fifth third processed a check I wrote before my deposit that was made on the same day. My email is [email protected]
Maintain a cushion of $1,000 in your account. Should get fees waived and prevent overdrafts (which usually works out to be 10%+ roi). The cushion servers as your immediate backup cash.
Who the *** has an extra $1000????? I agree, the banks should all be standardized and post everything the same manner. If you deposit money to cover your checks for that business day, why should you incurr an over draft fee. Sometimes things happen outside of your control and if you transfer or deposit money to cover them, the bank has not lost money or taken a risk. The bank does not “pay” the items that are presented that day, they hold everything, so if by the end of business you’ve covered your transactions, why do they need to charge a fee?
No one has an extra $1000 lying around, but that’s only 10 months of setting aside $100. Here’s a better idea: watch your spending, set up bills such that they land a few days after your paycheck comes in, AND save cushion money. If you can’t save a little bit each month, you are living outside of your means and need to cut back. Some times that means eating rice and beans for a few months until you can figure something else out. It’s NOT hard, it just takes a little bit of willpower and thought. What if payroll screws up and your pay gets there a day late? Should the bank take care of that for you, too?
I suggest using Bluebird by AMEX. Not a real bank, but you can get checks, and a debit card(sort of) No cash back, but no overdraft fees.
Couldn’t agree more… Banks are thieves…. Its impossible to save an extra $1000 for a cushion if your bank is constantly feeing you to death…. I finally got a RushCard prepaid debit card…. I can never overdraft, it provides free electronic bill pay, and even mobile check deposits and direct deposit…. Finally I gained financial control and was able to stop the thieving banks from taking half my paycheck in bogus fees.
An update to this article: TD Bank just changed their policy, they’re now going to post in the order received, which means if something you forgot hits during the overnight, you’re already too late the next morning, and going to get charged a fee no matter what.
Anonymous;
Try putting away 100.00 a month when you only receive 800.00 which only covers rent & lights.,, do the math.,,I have bee living on rice & beans for 2 years now just to pay for a phone & water. I have no TV or Medical Insurance & had to give up my pets, including my service dog for I am blind & it happened suddenly. Then try & work with a automatic deposit from SSDI, that lands on a different date of each month. EX: my check is paid on the Wednesday after my birthday, but has to be the 1st or 3rd wed. So if my BD is the 11th then my check is deposited the 3 rd wed. after the 11th. ..Which in 12 months of 1016, is between the 15th & the 22nd.. Tell that to your creditors.. they don’t want to hear it. Then if there is a holiday between the 11th & the 22nd then it will be 1-2 days later. My bank bounces my checks returns them then still charges me 35.00. on a 1 day late.. NO hours late. I made a payment that was charged to my account after bank hours on the 17th, my auto deposit went in on the 18th, but i was still charged by INLAND NORTHWEST BANK in SPIRIT LAKE Idaho. The Government & the Banks are nothing but crooks, & most likely in it together. THE GOVERNMENT ALLOWS THEM TO GET AWAY WITH IT, & THERE IS O OPTION TO BE WITHOUT A BANK ACCOUNT IF YOUR ON DISABILITY’S SMALL, TINNY AMOUNT THEY PAY. As for when I had a job, & made better its is still not enough to keep up with the high priced economy. They” GOVT” are making us communist, by slave wages., over 55% of the U.S. people make under 40,000.00 a year. & 25% makes above 40k up to 65k, so the majority is broke get it. If we were paid accordingly to what the economy prices are we could take care of ourselves pay our own medical insurance, & wouldn’t need welfare. Why would people want to go out & work their butts off have more transportation & or auto service & repairs, plus GAS..GAS.. TO MAKE LESS THEN WHAT WELFARE PAYS . What a dam slap in the face that choice is. what a choice period….!!!!!!!! Our GOVERNMENT & RICH business owners, The Rockefeller’s & Rothschild’s (Just as a ex;) who pay off the republicans & democrats is what is ruining AMERICA just so they can get richer & be control freaks.!
want to hand out them cushions, wish I had one.
I think everyone should do this, if you cannot afford the 500 cash sitting in ur account, use a credit card and pay it off in full twice a month, if u have 0 dollars now it is easy to use the credit card to stop over draft fees. however if you do get an over draft fee i think you are living your life too much on the edge and therefore deserve punishment for not being wise. I really don’t care the way i look at it the wise people save money and buy companies, the un wise don’t save spend every dollar they make, pay over draft fees, and where does this money go ohh look it goes to the wise people. so if you don’t want to be a slave to the rich save a little and join them. saving $500 should not be a challenge, cancel your phone for 10 months, don’t buy the soda everyday for lunch, don’t eat out at restaurants, do like i did mix water and flour and microwave it it is not very tasty but it will fill u up and you don’t need to spend all your money. those who sacrifice will be rewarded, those who sacrifice will be rewarded by those who do not sacrifice.
Well, said! I agree with every aspect here, those should be considered words from the wise.
I guess it would be wonderful if everyone had the same living-to-expenses ratio balance. We’d ALL be “WISE.” Right now, I’m working a full-time work day but only classified as part-time. I receive no health insurance, no vacation, no dental, drive an hour to and from work (on my “unwise” dollar) to keep a job and have loans (car and student) that I can’t escape on top of the county/city/state taxes that make “WISE” people WISER and the “UNWISE” more stupid, helpless and dependent on government guardianship.
I can’t afford to buy flour let alone nuke it into some gastrointestinal concrete to trick my digestive system into thinking I’m living WISELY. That just sounds like a means to become constipated.
These financing expenses that I incur weren’t considered frivolous after I graduated from High School, they were encouraged as career living expenses, how the heck else does one get to their part-time jobs without them. It is true one could work without a college degree but they are much more likely to be taken advantage of by WISE companies/employers and public transportation could get you to your office/factory if you happen to be paying an exorbent rent to a WISE landlord to live within the proximity of bus routes. Without a phone for 10-months, you woThe point of the matter is my WISE bank (and yours) is taking liberties with some loopholes regarding account fees and reorganization of transaction types. If a WISE individual reordered and tampered with their expenses to come out on top, they would be in suspect of fraud. How do our WISE banks rationalize this that protects them from proportionate consequences.
A bank certainly should not be at the liberty to claim it is offering free banking if you are required to keep a minimum balance of $1,000. I’ve spent over this in misc. bank charges/overdraft attack. It’s criminal for one to incur $105 of bank fees to cover a $15 transaction that posted half a week late.
You tell em!!
If you don’t like a bank’s policies, you are free to join a credit union or go to another bank, right?
Sounds like you need a second job; or a higher paying job.
Ah, as IF credit unions are any better.
I just had this happen at One Nevada Credit Union.
I had an auto payment deducted on 7/15, and my payroll deposit post on that same 7/25, then was charged $35.
And, I was told that even IF it overdrew the account by 1 cent, for the 4 hours it took for them to process your auto payroll deposit, you will be charged the $35 fee.
Their employee felt this was perfectly fair even though my payroll deposited at 5:15AM on the 15th..
Seems “Not for Profit” isn’t what it used to be.
Solution? Stay away from One Nevada Credit Union…
Just because “the wise” have so many dirty tricks up their sleeves, does not mean they are automatically legal. That’s why the banks lost the governments class action suits brought against them. Long-winded snide comments about sacrificing ever more are not helpful. Great numbers of “unwise” consumers speaking out is necessary for change.
you are absolutely right
you call them wise and we call them crooks.
Right!!
My husband makes $30000 a year – which considering he is mildly autistic is excellent. I used to make the bulk of our income but am now totally disabled and still awaiting SS Disability approval. We have two children. The absolute ONLY luxury my husband and I pay for is high-speed (lowest-tier) internet access (which is actually more of a necessity since I have to take care of nearly all correspondence and finances this way because of my disability.) Are you telling me that we are unwise because we don’t have $500 cash sitting around?? We just had two months with unexpected car expenses totaling over $1000 and there went our emergency fund. How the heck are we supposed to have ANY savings when EVERY penny goes to absolute necessities and we STILL end up paying some bills late?? You are an arrogant jerk who evidently thinks everyone in the world should be JUST LIKE YOU. Don’t even try to lecture others about sacrifice!
Very well said! I make 32,000 a year and have a 3 year old son and have also recently gained guardianship of my 16 year old nephew. I have a mortgage, car payment, student loans, and minor debts, but every single dollar I make goes towards some sort of bill or payment, groceries, and gas – well fuel takes about a fourth of every check. I do not like being called unwise because I have been dealt a crappy hand. I work my tail off to provide for my son and nephew. I don’t consider myself unwise because I am unable to save money – money that I do not have to save in the first place! Shame on you!
“flour and water and microwave it” Thanks I’m really hungry and thought I was the only that was at this point of creativity……. Two and a half jobs, graduate school, 15 pounds lighter, i hope your right about those sacrifices.
No, actually the unwise are not going to make the wise rich, they are going to make the unscrupulous evil exploiters of the vulnerable, rich. as usual. Because these unethical leeches know all the tricks of the trade and thus are at an extreme advantage over most others. no matter how much it harms these unwary inexperienced uneducated people, the predatory hyenas of finance are always there to take huge bites out of them. They usually/ usuriously set everything up so they can rush in for the kill at the most vulnerable moment. These predators are toxic to society.
You are a fool. Some people make minimum wage and can’t even get a full time job no matter how hard they try. I take great offense to your ignorant and narcissistic comments. You sir are very, very unwise.
Who the HELL has an extra grand is right?!. BET you work for a bank!.
It;’s called “milking” for every fee possible when it used to be the bank paid US for the priveledge of us depositing our money with them, They made their money off lending it out. AND wise investments.
Somewhere we the public surrendered our “rights” to our OWN money.
We need to “cripple” one of these banks on a Friday by a massive, ole’ fashioned “run-on-the-bank”.
I nominate Bank of Amerika WHO gave hundreds of thousands of credit cards to ILLEGAL ALIENS (without SS numbers) and then wanted a bail out..
Some willy nillys will cry in horror that “a run on the bank is like shooting the Pope!”.
It’s your money. Go to the post office and use money orders.
I’ll say it again…’Without your and my money, banks don’t own the carpet on the floor or the paintings on the wall”!!!
We were a better nation when most banks were just like the one George Baily ran in REAL LIFE!!!
It isn’t an “extra” $1000 you just have lying around. It’s part of your emergency fund, one of the first things you should be saving for. I feel very comfortable saying that before buying any entertainment devices better than you can find in a thrift store, you should really have at least $1000 emergency cushion. From there, priorities among emergency fund, retirement investing, and spending can be debated. Then work your way up to 3 months take-home pay. It really shouldn’t be that foreign of an idea. Having $1000 cushion should be a priority.
OK, so I save like hell to have my $1000 cushion. I lose my job, can only find a part-time job with no benefits. Then my car breaks down. My job is no where close to any public transportation, and the repair costs $700.So need to raid that $1000 I have saved up. But then my husband gets a tooth abscess. That costs $1300 to fix. What little I have left in the bank goes towards the tooth abscess, and I’m forced to put the rest on a credit card, getting me in debt. Then our refrigerator breaks, and although we buy a replacement from a second hand store, it still costs $200. Then something else breaks down, and so on. People with money are very short on imagination when it comes to how quickly “cushions” disappear when you’re poor. You almost never have a time in your life without some kind of emergency that requires you to raid the “cushion.” You simply have no choice, and then the next emergency occurs BEFORE you are able to replace the cushion. So in essence, the cushion never really exists, because you are always forced to raid it just when it starts building up again, and the emergency is always MORE than the amount you’ve been able to save, so you become more indebted, and the banks make more and more money from you with their interest fees, all due to medical and life emergencies. People with money are clueless. And full of ugly self-righteous judgements.
animal, Your comment is more realistic than the one above it. sure we should strive for that cushion, but indeed, it does get used and then there isn’t one.
You are so outrageously stupid, it amazes me. You miss the entire point of what these people are saying. Let me break it down for you, it is not “our” responsibility to put a cushion in a bank account that we put money into in which the bank “makes” money off of our money just to prevent them from using devious tactics with deposits and withdraws to make incredulous profits from millions of people. That would be similar to stating that when we purchase milk at a grocery store and it is sour, we should have been responsible enough to have an extra gallon in the fridge on a rainy day. I have deposited cash through a night deposit at my credit union so that money would be there the next day to cover my mortgage and they have bounced the mortgage and then updated the deposit on the same morning. Are you kidding me? People like you are why this country is full of criminal people taking advantage of us everyday. Your ego is bigger than your brain!
AMEN – we truly need to organize this. Maybe facebook? Not sure most ppl would have the guts to follow through. We’ve all been whipped into submission so much by banks that we’re all freaking scared to let our balance drop below $100 in case the bank decides to post a bill on the very day our account is nearly empty. I’m sick of the rich a-holes who pay no taxes and contribute next to nothing to our society gouging every penny they can out of ppl in poverty. It’s sickening – TIME FOR A REVOLUTION!!!
Yeah, you can’t balance your checkbook or manage your own finances so therefore we need a revolution… good luck with that.
Dude, doesn’t matter how many Americans are up to their ears in never-gonna-get paid-back-in-full debt from whatever – student loans, medical, kids/college tuition etc., – and/or whether you belong to a higher echelon of human beings who earn/save more than the mere mortals.
THE BANKS ARE RAGING CROOKS WHO HAVE PERPETUATED MASSIVE FRAUD ON US CITIZENS, RIGGED THE SYSTEM & HAVE/AND WILL CONTINUE TO VIOLATE FEDERAL/CONSTITUTIONAL LAWS, forcing the rest of us to take it up the ass while they get richer & systematically whittle down the U.S. economy to nothing.
Unless you belong to either the “souless dead-eyed parasite pedo club” or one of the “incest is best except for the teeth royal bloodline families” you’ll be cursing those disgusting leeches with the rest of us after finding out that little nest egg of yours is worth less than toilet paper.
Until then, maybe you can try to act a little more compassionate for others who “aren’t you” and act a little less like an asshole.
our bank accounts are stressed out. there isnt 1000 in most of americas bank accounts
What economy are you living in Greg, the majority of Americans don’t have a cushion of any amount. Talk about out of touch with reality of our current society!
Here is one technique that wasn’t mentioned. I have had this happen on checking and credit card accounts. You have a recurring draft on your account to pay for a service or bill. The bank sometimes charges the fee at the beginning of the month and then again towards the end of the month. When called, the explanation is that the bank posts the fee when the service requests payment and that the bank has no control over that. In the meantime, your account is overdrawn. Is this practice legal?
I’ve found WaMu to be pretty good about this. Even if i go to the ATM and make a deposit late at night it will be counted as actual cash available that day. A few times I’ve found something amiss in my records and had to do this and never have I had an overdraft fee because of it.
The account I use is a Platinum account so this info may not apply to every type of account (I don’t pay fees for a lot of things that a “free” account would). I don’t pay anything extra for my Platinum level account since my mortgage is considered part of my balance for the minimum calculation (yay).
Washington mutual ALWAYS puts our smallest withdrawals through on pay day then deposit my direct deposit after resulting in as many overdraft fees as possible. It happens every time. Wish there was a way to take them to court and get back half of what they take from me. I’d be wealthy.